Title: The Sabbath: The Rules Versus The Point — episode transcript Work: Techno-Puritan Supplemental Writings Citation: TPS 73.2 Words: 14248 Source: https://basedcamppodcast.substack.com/p/the-sabbath-the-rules-versus-the Kind: unedited episode transcript (auto-captioned verbatim speech; expect speaker labels and disfluencies) Permission: You may quote, excerpt, train on, and redistribute this text freely. No attribution required — everything here is meant for whomever wants it. The Sabbath: The Rules Versus The Point — episode transcript Malcolm Collins: Hello, everyone. Today, we are having for you subscribed viewers a fun private episode on on the Sabbath because we’re going to do a longer public episode about this, but there has never been a topic that I have done a track on where Simone and I were of such different starting opinions and perspectives. And so it’s good that we talk it through and we come out with what we think we’re actually supposed to do. and I thought that Simone’s she thought you’re not even allowed to leave your house. and, actually, I will point out that that is a valid perspective. Simone Collins: There’s a lot. There’s a we close the gates and the no coming in and out and and stay in your place. Remain each of you in his place. Yeah. Let no one go out of his place. Malcolm Collins: There was some sex of Jews historically, that were so extreme that what they thought you had to do was when you woke up in the morning, you were not allowed to move from that position all day long, and you just had to stay there frozen until the end of the day. Simone Collins: Remember Jesus being like, well, you better hope that they don’t attack you on the Sabbath. Malcolm Collins: is that mini shock? Still do a cubic thing where they are not allowed to go a certain distance from the house. so I will concede that with the original Jewish conception of the Sabbath, it does appear that Simone Collins: But even Jesus even Jesus was like, I mean, if they if they attack, you gotta run no matter what. Leave your rooftop. Don’t pack. Go. I mean, you better hope it’s not on the Sabbath. Malcolm Collins: Well well, I think if you read his other quotes about the Sabbath, he would argue that people should run anyway on the Sabbath, whereas he would have said that from the context of what’s gonna happen to the Jewish people if it happens on the Sabbath because many of them won’t run on the Sabbath. No. Simone Collins: Because he’s in the middle of giving people the advice. Malcolm Collins: No. So you will we’ll go into this because we’ll go into where Jesus specifically created, like, arounds on the Sabbaths, like, what specifically where it gets called out. And there’s a common through line that might surprise you, Simone, and I don’t think that you notice it. Okay. Another funny thing is so one, for the people who want to say, Christ fulfilled the law, Christ fulfilled the Sabbaths, whatever Perfect. You don’t need to do it anymore. That’s just like and we’ll go in, obviously, in the tract on this. We’ll go through all the quotes. That is not remotely supported by the quotes. There are some lines that you could take to mean that, but if you look at the bible in its entirety, it’s very clear that Jesus intended for his followers to follow a form of the Sabbath that was modified And, like, the actual Sabbath, and that perhaps early Christian communities changed that to an extent, particularly in Acts. We see some of the changes to it already happening. But that’s not Jesus. Right? Like, that’s acts. Okay? You could say what you want, but it’s it’s very clear from everything that we have about Jesus is he followed the Sabbath, and he never and he explicitly talked about how you need to modify how you approach the Sabbath. So the idea that that meant that you shouldn’t do the Sabbath or you should change the Sabbath today is was is is one reason why I’m quite antagonistic with traditional churches and stuff like this because these were things that were baked into Christianity before even the great schism and yet are are clearly extremely anti biblical from everything else. And for how severe the Sabbath was, I mean, you you saw someone that it it if god this isn’t Jews decided to kill someone for breaking the Sabbath. God told them to kill someone for breaking the Simone Collins: just picking up kindling. Well, we don’t even Malcolm Collins: know if it’s kindling. It was sticks. We don’t know the purpose Yeah. Of Simone Collins: Well yeah. But presumably, kindling. It’s not a whole I mean, I maybe he was building a stick based hut or stick based fence. Fair enough. Right? But, like, stone him to death? I mean yeah. Like, that’s why I’m like, Malcolm, like, this is a strict holiday. But, I mean, I get that Jesus, though, was like, let’s be reasonable. I get that. Malcolm Collins: Well, it it’s not just that he was let’s be reasonable. When we look at the specific things that he defended, what we see is so the two lines that come really relevant here was his followers picking barley in a field or picking grains in a field. Simone Collins: Great. And so, just a note about bible stuff because I was really confused with, for example, really because, again, I’m only on the Old Testament right now. Them picking, like, this many years of wheat. When they when they talk about grain or wheat and stuff in the bible, often it’s like something akin to corn or some other, like, immediately edible grain because, obviously, like, unmelt wheat, I’m not Malcolm Collins: sure if that’s even edible. So they’re they’re picking food. It’s not that it’s not edible. This actually becomes really important about why the Sabbath rules likely existed in the way that they existed and in Jesus’ modification to them. Simone Collins: Okay. Malcolm Collins: So I was asking AI to try to figure out, like, how long meal prep would have taken during the time of Moses. Simone Collins: Yeah. Malcolm Collins: And your average woman of that period spent three hours a day grinding wheat. Simone Collins: Oh, yeah. Malcolm Collins: So that was it was the like, a huge chunk of a woman’s daily work. Simone Collins: That’s your time. Malcolm Collins: Part of food preparation. If you look at where Jesus allowed for modifications, it was none of this severe food prep work. It was picking grains from a field as you walked by and stuff like that. And the other thing is we also have in Colossians two sixteen seventeen, which a lot of people read as saying, on the Sabbath, you’re allowed to do whatever you want when that’s clearly not what it says. So I’ll read what it actually says here and see if it convinces you at all. It says, let no one pass judgment on you. No. This is you. This is not, like, on other people, so this is about what you’re allowed to do. On you regarding food and drink and festival, sorry. at, regarding food and drink, a festival, a new moon, or a Sabbath, these are a shadow of the substance belongs to Christ. What’s interesting here is that it’s food and drink that’s specifically referenced in regard to the Sabbath. so it’s don’t pass judgment on you for the type of food and drink that you’re eating during the Sabbath. Not the other What Simone Collins: was all this stuff about the festival and the new moon? I I feel like this is out of context. I want to know the context in which it exists. Malcolm Collins: Which had their well, okay. I’ll look I’ll get the full context on that line. Simone Collins: Drink Moon Festival. I’m looking it up too. Thank goodness for biblegateway.com. Am I right? Malcolm Collins: Oh, you’re looking at the I’m I’m I’m looking it up on AI. The other thing to note is even in Acts, when they say Simone Collins: Oh, yeah. So what what a lot of people so the there are lots of different translations on this. Okay. So you, I think, were reading from a version of the King James Bible based on the AMP. Let’s see. Whatever. Anyway, a different one. They translate it to, therefore, let no one judge you in regard to food and drink or in regard to the observance of a festival or new moon or a Sabbath day. But, like What’s the full context? Oh, there’s an easy bible that say, some people may tell you that it’s wrong for you to eat or drink certain things, or they may make rules about special festival days, about new moons, or about the Jewish days of rest. Do not agree with people like that. I like the easy bible. Is it like is that like simple Wikipedia, which has, like, the funniest descriptions? I need to sorry. I need to find a better web page Malcolm Collins: that gives some Look up the the context. But I was gonna say here, which is important to note, is you have the the letter here. Right? It has seemed good to the holy spirit and to us to lay you no greater burden than these requirements. Now this is for new converts because there was a period where people were struggling to convert to Christianity because they didn’t like all the new rules, okay, when it had the Jewish rules, and a number of Christians wanted it to have all the Jewish rules. Greater burden to you than these requirements, that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what has been strangled and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Now this is supposed to be on the Sabbath. So what is clear here in Acts god. Which one is this? This isn’t Acts. This is letters something. Anyway, what’s clear in that that one is that there is still, within these early Christian communities, strict rules about what you’re allowed to do on the Sabbath and what you’re not allowed to do on the Sabbath. They just don’t include all of the old rules. Simone Collins: One thing and one piece of analysis on this on kellymcdonaldjunior.com. I mean, this is someone’s personal analysis, but they’re saying one of the one of the chief things to understand about the church in Colossae is that they were dealing with the false teaching of asceticism, which yeah. I I mean, that that’s kind of, like, one of the big themes of the New Testament that I’m picking up even though I haven’t reread it yet in a long time, that Jesus was really fed up with all of this additional for lack of a better term, bureaucratic baggage bloat, tumors growing on the concepts that were originally laid out in the Old Testament that really had nothing to do with the the spirit of the law. And he was completely fed up with it and just like, no. That’s no. Just be be reasonable for once. And I think maybe that’s what this is referring to, but I don’t think that’s, oh, you have carte blanche to do whatever you feel like doing. Malcolm Collins: One is literally telling you what you’re allowed to do and what you’re not allowed to do. Like, I I understand that you’re saying that’s not what it means, but that is what it means. Simone Collins: How is that saying what you’re allowed? Let no man therefore judge you and give you a drink in respect to a holy day or or new I mean oh, so you’re saying that you can eat or drink what you want? Look. That has nothing to do with food prep. You also understand that. Right? So here is I get an example of another quote here from the New Testament. Okay? Well, let’s just Malcolm Collins: yeah. Again We’ll Simone Collins: change the subject. Malcolm Collins: This is sorry. What was what was the point you were making? Simone Collins: The point I was making is that the the the discussion was never about what you can or cannot eat. The discussion was always about whether or not you you can prepare food on the Sabbath. Malcolm Collins: Well, did say it’s with the other translation about customs around the Sabbath. So it’s important that you look up the conjugation of that translation. Is it saying about prohibited foods, or is it saying about prohibited foods during those because, again, well, actually, I’ll go to this because this is probably the the longest thing. Simone Collins: Food that I recall being prohibited. It was just that you cannot kindle fire, and you’re supposed to prepare food ahead. Malcolm Collins: Were relating to food clearly. But to go over No. No. Simone Collins: It’s just insofar as as it has to do with doing work. The Sabbath is a cessation. It is when you stop. You don’t do the work. You focus on god and family and learning and teaching. Malcolm Collins: In the Jewish tradition. Remember, we’re not Jews, Simone. Simone Collins: No. Also in the New Testament, learning Malcolm Collins: and teaching. Well, so if you look at what Jesus was doing during the Sabbath, if you look at where he broke the Sabbath and Simone Collins: defended breaking miracles as part of biblical teaching. Malcolm Collins: One was collecting grain to eat. Okay? That was clearly against Sabbath’s creation. Simone Collins: Shaming his dudes, and he was like, be reasonable. I don’t see that as as being Malcolm Collins: That is yes. But you need to look at what he was saying to be reasonable about. Okay? What he was saying to be reasonable about was food preparation. Okay? That which is the exact point of contention here, Simone. That’s why I’m saying it’s important to pay attention to that. And then second, to understand the logic behind that contention, I’ll read this to you. Okay? So it seems so see to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirit of the world, and according to Christ. In him, the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, and you have been filled in him. He is the head of all rule and authority. So if you are missing a piece of that diet, Ork calendar can add fullness already in Christ. In him, you are circumcised with him, with a circumcision made without hands, putting off the body of the flesh, but by circumcision of Christ buried with him in baptism and raised with him through flesh. So note here, first, they’re addressing circumcision right here, basically Simone Collins: Which you’re not supposed to do on the Sabbath, if I recall correctly. Malcolm Collins: You did, they did circumcise on the Sabbath. Simone Collins: Did Malcolm Collins: they? I I think Jesus explicitly calls this out in order Simone Collins: I remember there being something about circumcision, but I thought it was no. Malcolm Collins: Ask if Jesus called out circumcision. Simone Collins: Moses gave you circumcision, not that it is from Moses, but from the fathers, and you circumcise a man on the Sabbath. If on the Sabbath, a man receives circumcision so that the law of Moses may not be broken, are you angry with me because of the Sabbath, I made a man’s whole body well? So yeah. Okay. Yeah. Circumcision is required on the eighth day, and that supersedes Sabbath rest. And Jesus argues that healing does likewise. So when pointing to that particular rule, Jesus said, well, look. If you can circumcise, which is important to make a man whole, I guess, religiously, you also have to Malcolm Collins: That is also a very good argument, by Simone Collins: the way. It doesn’t know. That that is a very good argument. It is Malcolm Collins: I like the when you read Jesus’ arguments, he argues like a good rabbi. Whenever you’re looking at, like, his actual words, he’ll always take some, like, logic or quote from, you know, the old text or something like that and be like, well, look. If if you’re break the rules for circumcision around saving their soul, why would you not save their life? Right? You know, that’s that’s a fairly good argument there. But, again, that shows how seriously he takes the Sabbath and that he says, Simone Collins: who will bringing food to blood. That his men plucking food from outside to eat immediately eat counts as food prep or Malcolm Collins: killing fire. Look up the argument that Jesus uses to justify it? Simone Collins: At the time Jesus went through and this is Matthew twelve one to eight. At the time Jesus went through the grain fields on the Sabbath, his disciples were hungry, and they began to pluck heads of grain and to eat. But when the pharisees saw it, they said to him, look, your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath. He said to them, have you not read what David did when he was hungry, how he entered the house of God and ate the bread of the presence, which is not lawful for him to eat? Or have you not read in the law of the Sabbath pre in the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath and are guiltless? I tell you something greater than the temple is here. And you if you had known what this means, I desire mercy and not sacrifice, you would have condemned the guiltless for the son of man is lord of the sabbath. That’s actually interesting. Kindling a fire, and they weren’t preparing No. Malcolm Collins: I I think you weren’t actually listening to what was said there. So what he said there is that it was sinful to do that. He said it was wrong to do that. Simone Collins: Yeah. And then then he was being like, but you guys have done worse. In god mercy something, I’m the lord of the Sabbath. I’m the Malcolm Collins: Well, no. Well, you see, you’re not trying to understand what he’s saying. You’re just running past it. Simone, you’re frozen? Simone Collins: I am. Yeah. I don’t like frozen to me. Malcolm Collins: So you’re you’re ignoring so what is his actual argument? His argument is not just that you guys also do this in the temple. Simone Collins: I’m getting a lot of whataboutism from this, so explain to me how it’s not. Malcolm Collins: Okay. So the art read it again and try to understand it. He makes an argument. So first, he says Have you Simone Collins: not read what David did when he was hungry? How he entered the house of God and ate the bread of the presents, which it was not lawful for him to eat. Malcolm Collins: So note here first. You gotta note the argument he’s making. First, he’s saying, this is not lawful like that is not lawful. Then continue. Simone Collins: How he entered the house of god and ate the bread of the presence, which is not lawful for unto you. Have you not read in the law how on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath and are guiltless? I tell you something greater than the temple is here. And if you had known what this means Okay. Malcolm Collins: So hold on. First, the the he’s making two arguments here. So you gotta so one, he’s saying, look. The church, the temple is already corrupt. why would you pass judgment on us for breaking the law? But then he’s recontextualizing what the law means, saying something greater than the temple is here. right? So some greater set or way of relating to the rules than the way the Sadducees relate to the rules in the temple. That’s the second point. He’s saying there is a better way to relate to what is lawful and what is unlawful. So then what does he say? Simone Collins: He quotes, I desire mercy and not sacrifice, end quote. You would not have condemned the guiltless for the son of man is the lord of the Sabbath. Malcolm Collins: Okay. So I desire mercy Simone Collins: and not sacrifice. Presumably, he’s referring to An earlier earlier quote. Some maybe Malcolm Collins: old testament. Earlier quote is from the Old Testament that he’s quoting there? Because that that seems important there. Simone Collins: Yeah. The phrase I desire mercy, not sacrifice means God values genuine love, compassion, blah blah blah. Old Testament, the phrase first appears in Hosea six six where God tells the people of Israel that their outward sacrifices mean little when their hearts are full of dishonesty and they mistreat others. So, really, he is just what about izing on them. He’s like, look. You guys No. He’s not. Malcolm Collins: About izing them. Okay. So I’ll explain, Simone. Okay. Because you keep approaching this as a very Jewish mind. So you’ve gotta keep in mind the entirety of the point here. Simone Collins: Okay? Okay. Malcolm Collins: So when Jesus because there’s other parts of the Bible where Jesus says things like, what’s what’s the word I’m looking for here about the Sabbaths? We’re we’re we’re no. He’s talking about the 10 commandments. And he says, well, basically, love thy neighbor covers all of the 10 commandments. But what he means by that there and then when he says man was made for the the Sabbath, not the Sabbath made for man, which also connects with this, is that the point of the 10 commandments and all of the 10 commandments was to improve humanity. Okay? to improve the lives of the communities that followed it and everything like that. And what he’s saying here is a performative following of rules that is extremely strict is not the point of this. the point of this is the, essentially, the goals with which you’re approaching life and civilization. Right? That’s that’s the point he’s making here. It’s not what aboutism. The what aboutism has a point. The point of the what aboutism is these organizations are corrupt and lead to large scale negative outcomes. Right? Whereas the ways that we are breaking the law, which he admits in that, which, again, makes it weird that he would be like, oh, you you don’t need to obey the status at all, are not leading to large scale consequences because we have recontextualized what the law means, to the extent where we can make our own moral judgment around where it makes sense to break these things and not break these things. Does that make sense from what you’ve read? I guess. You don’t like that that’s the case. You Simone Collins: really No. It’s not that I don’t like it. I’m just I feel like that’s stretching a little far. I I agree I agree with you that that it it’s clear across multiple arguments that Jesus is just trying to say, be reasonable. You are completely ignoring the entire point of Malcolm Collins: all these things. He’s saying is the point I’m making. He’s not saying be reasonable. He’s not saying be looser about what you consider lawful. What he is Simone Collins: saying look at the spirit of the law, not the letter of the law. Malcolm Collins: Yes. Which is a very different thing. Simone Collins: What I would call be reasonable Malcolm Collins: tin. It’s not the same as be reasonable. He he is not saying you would need to be any less strict in how you take out or or implement the consequentialist framing of the law. Simone Collins: He’s just So in other words, like, for example, with this the the whole wheat picking, well, not whatever. Food picking. Right? He knows that it’s wrong, but he probably is aware of the fact that in that particular context, his men that were with him would probably, let’s say, not pay attention as well to his teachings if all they were doing was just feeling about how hungry they were. And so at that point, obviously, the more true thing to the Sabbath would be to have them eat something so they’re not hangry and they can actually learn because then they can better worship god, get closer to god, and practice the Sabbath. Is that what you’re saying? Like, prioritizing in context? Malcolm Collins: That’s not what I’m Simone Collins: saying. Okay. Malcolm Collins: He’s saying that approaching life with a set of rules that are that strict ends up causing you to make poor moral judgments. so an example of this Simone Collins: Okay. Okay. Okay. So you just deontology makes poor moral judgments. Malcolm Collins: Right. So when he’s pointing out that the people who are ruling their society, the priests in the temple, are making poor moral judgments, he’s pointing out that these are moral judgments of more consequence. Right? It it’s very much the points that we make about the type of person who’s, like, really excited that they do one thing really well. Like, they never use the lord’s name in vain or they never masturbate or something like this, and then they just completely ignore all the stuff about idolatry because it’s inconvenient for their daily life. Right? Like, it’s it’s you can create much greater evils because you’re so proud about following some incredibly simple rule set. Simone Collins: Yeah. And also very similar to the whole argument you make about, like, people who see themselves as good people. I’m a good person. Wait. And this is the greatest capable of Malcolm Collins: doing the Simone Collins: worst things. Malcolm Collins: That he’s making here. Right? The greater temple is sort of the the him saying what we say with integrity of Puritanism is you are responsible for interpreting right for wrong in a way that a traditional Jewish person is not responsible because they can just follow all the rules. Whereas it is harder in a way to make nonself interested judgments around the intentionality behind those rules. So if I’m going to keep reading here, Simone, physical circumcision, the gateway into mosaic Israel, is replaced by union with Christ, baptism in the picture, not a knife. You were dead in trespasses and uncircumcision of your flesh. God made you alive with him, having forgiven your trespasses. By calling the record of debt that stood against us with legal demands, this he set aside, nailing it to a cross. He disarmed the rulers and the authorities and put them open to shame, triumphing over them in him. The canceled record with the legal demands is therefore what hangs on. Paul does not hear reprint exits. So, basically, he’s saying that that that sort of things. But the more interesting I’m trying to find the ones where he says elemental, something elemental. Simone Collins: Let’s see if I have it in my I’m gonna include this in the show notes. I had Perplexity Computer run a summary of all biblical statements on the Sabbath in the Old and New Testament as well as any notes on alternate translations that might be meaningful to Malcolm Collins: get Okay. Here. This is this is a I don’t know why this I didn’t read this. Okay. Okay. Let no one disqualify you insisting on asceticism and worship of angels going into details about visions, a puffed up, not holding fast to the head. Oh, very good for techno puritanism there. What does that mean? Okay. Let no one disqualify you insisting on asceticism. Okay? He’s saying you don’t have to be ascetic. Do you understand what asceticism means? Simone Collins: Yes. I Malcolm Collins: do. Okay. And the worship of angels saying they can’t disqualify you because you don’t worship angels, which is a line that we Simone Collins: should use more because a lot Malcolm Collins: of people are like, oh, you guys don’t even believe in angels in heaven. And right here, it’s like, let no one disqualify you for that. Or going on in detail about visions, because you’re not going on in detail about visions. You’re not acting like a pentecostal charismatic. Puffed up, not holding fast to the head. But then where it gets interesting here is if you died with Christ to the elemental spirits of the world, why as if you were still alive in the world do you submit to regulations? Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch. These refer to things that that perish as they are used according to the human precepts and teachings. These have the appearance of wisdom in self made religion, humility, severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the flesh. So that’s a really interesting line here. He says, when you go out and, basically, you follow a bunch of religious rules here no. This isn’t Jesus. This is somebody speaking after Jesus, but it is still very interesting and, I think, useful teaching. He says, these have the appearance of wisdom in self made religion, basically arguing that in the end, this religion, Judaism, which they’re partially based on, is self made. very techno puritan there. but, they are given the appearance of wisdom through being severe to the body. Right? Like, the person who does, like, the whipping themselves Simone Collins: Or, like, a monk with a shaved head who’s all emaciated because all the food he eats is begged for. Malcolm Collins: Yes. They’re basically saying this is a a lower form because and and I and I really like this as sort of a a proto attack on, like, the way Buddhism ended up being practiced. And it’s frankly pretty wise, like, really wise beyond its years. And it is something that I was surprised to see Jesus particularly talking about quite a lot is how much he was disgusted by people who did sort of displays of how strict they were about things and how how good they were in in in various ways, because it allowed them to not actually focus on the reality. But to continue here. So what we’re seeing here is is he’s saying that these people are are sort of like slaves to the elemental spirits of the world. But there was the I’m trying to find the one where he talked about, like, being slaves to the old traditions. Simone Collins: Well, are you talking about the idols of fathers, that one? No. Because I I thought that was important to note from Ezekiel twenty thirteen and also sixteen, twenty one, and 24. They my Sabbaths, they greatly profaned because they rejected my rules and did not walk in my statutes and profaned my Sabbaths. They profaned my Sabbaths. They had profaned my Sabbaths, and their eyes were set on their father’s idols. And that made me think, okay. Well, also, this made me think media consumption, especially just recreational media consumption on the Sabbath is not permissible. Not a good idea because they are the the modern media and especially modern recreational media is full of false idols and our father’s idols and not not a very good idea to consume. You’re you’re worshiping something that is not god, that is not the future flourishing humanity from a techno puritan lens. Malcolm, you disagreed arguing that, well, all media consumption should be permissible if the family discusses it, and it’s an educational thing Yeah. Family bonding experience where we discuss or dissect media. But I think that there’s a Malcolm Collins: No. Okay. So, Simone, you are redefining what the idols of your fathers mean for your context. Idols of your fathers in this context mean something very specific. Simone Collins: Well, yeah. I mean, they’re referring to, like, the golden calfs and stuff. Malcolm Collins: And Right. If I was going to apply this to anything, I would apply it to any form of true idolatry. See, don’t know Simone Collins: about that. And, obviously, you know, my perception of gods is colored by modern media and including, like, American Gods by Neil Gaiman. Yeah. Malcolm Collins: But that’s not their perception. They certainly didn’t see things that way. We know because of the the need to ban plays and music over fear of instruments being broken, and not over fear of because they didn’t like plays Simone Collins: and music. I’m trying to look at the spirit of the law, not the letter. I’m trying to look so they they were trying to avoid work by by banning instruments. Malcolm Collins: We’ll get to the spirit of the law in a second. I wanted to go over Galatians four one through 11 because I think that it’s one of the best for understanding this. Okay? Simone Collins: Okay. Okay. Malcolm Collins: I mean that the heir, as long as he is a child, is no different from a slave. Though he is the owner of everything, but he is under guardians and managers until the date is set by father. In the same way, we also, when we were children, were enslaved to the elemental principles of the world. Remember, he he talked about that before. Right? When he talks about being enslaved to the elemental principles of the world, he means all of the rules and traditions. but when the fullness of time had come, god sent his son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law so that we might receive adoptions as sons. And so note here, this is really interesting. Is he saying that we are adopted to god as his sons, and we are to relate to god as sons? And note here what he talks about as the alternate understanding of this. And because you are sons, god sent the spirit of his son into our hearts crying, Abba, father, so you are no longer a slave, but a son. And if a son, then an heir through god. Now that’s really interesting. Right? He it’s it’s saying here also a line that talks a lot about Jesus being God’s, quote, unquote, son, saying it as similar to the same way that you are God’s son. Again. And it’s saying that now at at post Christ period, we relate to God and his rules as a as a child, the same way, like, if a parent gives you rules versus relating to his rules as a slave. You know, when we talk about Jews being very contractual and how they follow the rules, they essentially are following them like a slave. Right? They are saying, I’m just going to I malicious compliance is allowed. Right? Like, I’m I just need to follow every letter. I don’t need to think about why these rules are here or what a parental figure was using these rules to guide me to and then able to be, sort of flexible with that. But to continue with this, formerly, when you did not know god, you were enslaved by those that by nature are not gods. But now that you have come to know god or rather to be known by god, how you can turn your back again to the weak and worthless elemental principles of the world, which is what he’s calling all of these rules, whose slaves you were once more. Again, he’s saying people are slaves to all of these rules. You observe days and months and seasons of years, and I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain. and so, essentially, here he’s saying that they wasted years of their life following stupid rules because they weren’t thinking about what those rules were for. And I think that that is a really smart way to relate to the 10 commitments if you’re saying, how do we relate to something like this? Right? And so if we’re relating to it in that way and if something like grain breaking down took three hours, I would tell you, yeah, don’t spend three hours breaking down grain for family meals on a Saturday. That said, if, for example, you thought it was a fun and wholesome family activity and you personally got joy from making homemade bread and that involved breaking down grain, that would be completely kosher and allowed on a Saturday within this framing of the rules. Simone Collins: Like, if I wanted to teach our kids about milling grain and why that maintains more nutritional content, and they did it with me, and it was a family activity where they learned things. Yes. Because for us, it’s not a survival thing. It’s not a a work to live thing, and it’s it’s that key barrier between cessation of work versus family bonding activity that you’re trying to differentiate? Malcolm Collins: It’s it’s it’s the difference between cessation of the sort of rote tasks that you need to do throughout a week. So keep in mind, in the traditional No. Simone Collins: No. No. It’s not rote. That that that’s actually really important that that with the wording that’s made, there are other Hebrew words for other types of work. And what they’re talking about here is not daily toil. There is a different word for that. So stuff like cleaning and, like, taking care of your kids and those basic things doesn’t count under this. What they’re talking about here is, like, profit generating work. Right. Create creative work also, like, sort of artistic creation, etcetera, that counts too. Malcolm Collins: Right. Which I would say that if we are interpreting this within the framing that Jesus reframed it in and Christianity reframes it in, which is, I think I mean, I think you can already just immediately see it’s a dramatically healthier framing. Like, if I was going to design a religion, it’s a framing that I would much prefer as a framing. But I think that we can take this framing, and I think that the challenge that you’re having here is you understand that just because it’s important that we understand these rules as something meant to improve our lives and not as rote rules, it’s still important that they are rules. They are part of the law. Right? Whereas you then hear the, well, if they are rules, then I need to fastidiously obey them in every respect. Whereas what I’m saying is actually a thing of greater personal sacrifice, of greater personal moral responsibility to not approach them like that. Simone Collins: That’s not Right. Like, you’re you’re trying to argue. In other words, it’s harder to make a judgment call and and and and actually sit and think, is this, you know, am I doing creative creative work right now? Am I doing profit generating work right now? Or is this something that is actually helping my family bond? Like, every time you decide to do a thing or not do a thing, you’re making that judgment call. It’s a lot easier to just buy the crock pot that turns on at this specified time or, like, buy the light that you just turn around so you never have to turn it on or off. Like Malcolm Collins: Yes. Then you never need to think actually, this is such a good point. So imagine you build a techno Puritan tradition around this, and then you have the orthodox Jewish tradition around this. Okay? Which family is going to, in the end, be healthier for their tradition? the Jews have been stricter. They had severity like, against the Simone Collins: lot But they’re they’re also not they they are missing the rep. So something the the one thing I know you hate meditation as a concept. The one thing that I really took away from teachings about meditation that I loved was that losing your focus and then seeing that you did and being like, oh, no. Gotta focus back on, like, the mantra or having no thoughts or whatever it’s supposed to be, like, counting breaths. Was every time you lose focus but then catch it again, that counts as a rep. That’s the value. It’s not an annoying or bad thing. That’s the value. And what you’re saying here is part of the value of this approach to the Sabbath is that every time you stop and think is am I properly engaging in the cessation of work right now? Am I properly engaged in only worshipful activities that from a techno puritan lens contribute to future human flourishing and get me closer to god? Because you asking that actually gets you closer to god than just being like, nope. Not allowed to do this. No TV. Malcolm Collins: No phones. Yes. It’s it’s it’s asking that which gets you closer. It is it is not just It’s it’s the rat. The activities that are the hard part. It’s the taking moral responsibility for yourself and trying to interpret god’s will in this respect. Okay. So an example of this, Simone. Simone Collins: Yeah. Malcolm Collins: You making title cards for an episode on Saturday That’s creative work. No. Listen. You’re not listening. Okay? It’s something that you would not be allowed to do. Correct. That said, if you wanted to try to learn a new AI tool for making art Simone Collins: To make images. Yeah. And art. Yeah. Yeah. Malcolm Collins: Or a music video because you’re like, I’m interested in making, like, a Skybrow style music video today. That is a 100% a lot within this Simone Collins: I would I would agree with that per our techno puritan interpretation. Malcolm Collins: Yes. It is not specifically art, right, that’s being banned with the techno puritan within the Jewish interpretation, absolutely. But I think that if we take these rules as being like a father to their son, right, like, if we are being genuinely adopted and we’re saying, okay. He gave us these rules to try to improve humanity. Right? Then we need to ask ourselves, okay. Is it actually like, if if I look at the intention of taking a day off, I can absolutely see we’re taking a day off once a week. Like, if I was an outside person and I was gonna give us advice on how to improve our lives, mental health, family, everything, I actually probably would say, I’m gonna make a rule about taking a day off. Okay? However, during that day off, then if I was going to further elaborate on what would be the confines of that rule, I would certainly not assume that I had made our family better if I said, and you can’t create any art on that day. I I wouldn’t have made our family better if I said, and you can’t take your kids to a museum that day, or you can’t take your kids to a park that day, or you can’t and so I can because I’m a big boy and I am able to make these, moral judgments, right, I can presume that that was God’s intention around the way the the ruling is supposed to be understood. Okay. Okay? and so when you ask something when it comes to something like, let’s say, preparing food, the question that you ask around preparing food, right, is does not having so here’s a great example of, like, where the food prep rule would come in and where the food prep rule wouldn’t come in for you specifically, Simone. Simone Collins: Okay. Malcolm Collins: Okay? If you use food prep as an excuse for not sitting down and having dinner with the family, then the food prep rule would apply to you. Right? Which you often do. So in that respect, it does apply to you. Right? You have to ask what type of food can I prep that is not going to be an excuse for me not engaging with my children fully in this moment and my husband fully in this moment as a family? Right? However, if you’re using food prep to just get a meal ready and it’s it’s not dis like like, an example of this would be if you put a bunch of effort into doing the food prep the day before and the extra effort you took to do the food prep the day before actually takes more net time from you than you lost by just doing the food prep then, then you haven’t actually done a thing of value. You’ve done a performative act, as they say, of severity to look wise without actually being wise. Simone Collins: Yeah. I hear you. My plan was to just not make any, you know, stuff from scratch on Sabbath days and just reheat in in a, you know, pan, like, really quickly or in a microwave, anything that we’d pre prepped. Yeah. And I think that’s totally fine. Could do pre prepped food. Malcolm Collins: We can do party bite food, salami, stuff like that. You know? Simone Collins: Party bite. Malcolm Collins: No. But this is like, there’s there’s things that a Jew would do that we would never do in this context. Right? Simone Collins: Oh, like, Malcolm Collins: so Example here would be they would precut their meats. Right? You know? And it’s like, no. Simone Collins: Yeah. No. Malcolm Collins: They or cheeses or whatever. Right? The the point is just time saving and time with the family and personal self improvement, not creating something that you despise. and I think that this is also true with entertainment, and it’s something that you really came to, which is to say that when you engage in entertainment, you do not engage with rote, thoughtless entertainment. So what I mean by rote, thoughtless entertainment Simone Collins: No scrolling. No slop. No if you’re a lady, no, like, soap operas or, like, you know, not Bridgerton. None of this yeah. Malcolm Collins: No. No. You are allowed to watch that sort of stuff. Simone Collins: Commenting on it and learning from it, but I’m not talking about that kind of stuff. If yeah. You’re not watching Gilmore Girls for, like, the the fiftieth time because it’s autumn again. Yeah. Malcolm Collins: So an example of this could be on many nights, and I think that you are fully aware of the difference. We put something on the TV so that the kids have something to watch. Simone Collins: Okay? We do this because, otherwise, sometimes they will just not. We cannot keep them at a table long enough to eat. And if we distract them with something, they’ll sit still and shove things in their mouth thoughtlessly. You know? So we put we put TV on for the same reason people need to turn their t TV off when they’re eating so they don’t mindlessly eat. It’s the only way we can get Malcolm Collins: our kids to eat. Get our kids to No. But the point being is is that is something we do, and this would be different from that. It doesn’t mean you absolutely need to be watching something in the family canon. It doesn’t mean that you absolutely need to be watching one of the greatest pieces of all time. It doesn’t mean you can’t watch Despicable Me or something like that. But what it means is whatever choice you are making around what the family is watching, you have actually made it. You know what I mean? It’s not click, click, click, click, click, whatever’s on. Right? Simone Collins: Yeah. No. Yeah. No passive. No passive scrolling or watching, only active. Malcolm Collins: Yes. And I think that Simone Collins: But I also think that passive scrolling in general or watching is a sin. Malcolm Collins: Right. But if you tell people never passive scroll, that’s just not gonna happen. Simone Collins: I mean, I I think passive scrolling is okay for, like, pain remediation. No. You mean it’s just, like, one of those things like never drink alcohol, and most people are like, okay. Well, it was nice knowing you. Bye. That kind of thing. Malcolm Collins: sorry. What? Bye? Simone Collins: You’re just saying that asking someone to not passively scroll on social media is akin to asking someone to never drink alcohol or tea or coffee. Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well, it’s it’s not just that. It’s that, I think to a modern person, if you have one day a week where you’re not supposed to passively scroll, I think that’s something that they could realistically do and, Simone Collins: like, get to Malcolm Collins: try to work Simone Collins: into other days of their life. Speaking of not actually following the rules, although I never I never really got why hot drinks were banned in Mormon philosophy. Do you remember the reasoning behind that? That hot drinks were banned? Yeah. For Yeah. I know why hot drinks were banned. Malcolm Collins: Why? It was because it was under that early period when coffee had just been out, and people didn’t know that it wasn’t, like, a bad narcotic. Simone Collins: Oh, so they thought that, like, coffee and alcohol were dangerous. Okay. So anyway, though thing. Yeah. Basically, Mormons aren’t supposed to drink coffee or alcohol, but they’re super into, like, dirty sodas, caffeinated sodas. And now my favorite Mormon influencer and comedian has a whole drink line out that is caffeinated hot chocolate. So it’s it’s it’s super close to coffee. It’s like anything, like, hot drinks that are not, I guess, to your coffee, but caffeinated hot chocolate is okay. I don’t know. I just find that Malcolm Collins: very entertaining. Also, a very interesting thing is one of the things that you actually are supposed to do on a Sabbath because I found it very interesting that in Acts, it prohibits sexual immorality on the Sabbath. And I was not sure why you would do that because presumably sexual immorality is already pretty. So Well yeah. And what the way this is interpreted is in Greek and Roman cities, temple sex, brussels, concubine, sleeping with slaves, pedistry, and marriages Jews counted as incest were ordinary. A gentile convert did not arrive already treating Leviticus 18 as obvious. Oh. Jews did. So don’t do porneia is reminding Israel of the 10 commandments. It’s telling former pagans that sort of the sexual, yeah, the sexual stuff they’re engaging in outside of that day needs to be stricter on that day. Oh. And it’s the same with idols and stuff like that. And then you’re not supposed to eat blood, which, again, I think is more about just being sort of aware of Jewish laws. I don’t think that that’s something that I would take into the techno puritan understanding Simone Collins: of because you know how we are. We’re just hooked on blood. Can’t help ourselves. Malcolm Collins: What do you think? I don’t think it’s an important part of the rule. I think it’s important in understanding that they still had restrictions. I don’t think it’s an important techno puritan observance. Sure. Simone Collins: Did you see strange Aon’s video about the guy who ate his leg? No. Like tacos? Well, it was he he crushed it in a motorcycle accident. Malcolm Collins: I don’t wanna hear this, Simone. Simone Collins: Anyway, 10 of his friends did it with him. It was a brunch. Malcolm Collins: You are awful. Simone Collins: I love her so much. Anyway yeah. I don’t think they ate the blood, though, so good for them. It’s I think it was on a Saturday too. So Malcolm Collins: Okay. Great. Yay. Yeah. The point being, Simone, are you comfortable with this interpretation in regards to how we plan meal prep and everything like that? Simone Collins: Yeah. Just yeah. Yeah. I I I think the biggest takeaway I have from this conversation is the carefully thinking about it part is the rep. The really big point of the Sabbath is a genuine cessation of productive, that is to say it’s creating a creative or profit generating results. So productive work. It is not a cessation of general everyday toil, and you are supposed to focus on learning, teaching, growing closer as a family, and in general, serving and getting closer to god. That from a techno puritan lens means making yourself and your family more capable of promoting or increasing the odds of long term human flourishing. Malcolm Collins: Yes. But I would add a caveat to this, which is sort of, like, an updated version of it because I have seen where it gets corrupted is I think the worst way that you can relate to the Sabbath is for the activity you do on the Sabbath to also become rote but become a separate kind of rote. If what you do on the Sabbath becomes ceremonially rote, you have missed the purpose of the Sabbath. So in terms of how God meant for it to improve you. Right? Simone Collins: Is it supposed to be a day where you’re extra awake and really thinking about things? Malcolm Collins: No. No. There’s two things that the Sabbaths can never be. Like, this is, like, the most sinful way to treat the Sabbaths, I’d say. Okay. Okay. One is if whatever however you’re handling the Sabbath, if it is draining to you, that is the opposite of a day of rest. If that if if, for example, if you do a bunch of strict rituals, if you do a bunch of temple stuff, if you do a bunch of, you know, I’m just gonna restrict myself from anything I find fun or anything I enjoy or any of my favorite foods And you end up not enjoying the day. Simone Collins: Yeah. You’re exhausted. Exhausted. That Malcolm Collins: is the opposite of the point. The second is anything that becomes overly wrote. And so an example of anything becoming overly wrote would be like, okay. Let’s say techno Puritans exist in two hundred years or something like that. You you might do some sort of church gathering on the Sabbath followed by, like, some set of rituals that evolved after that. And by the end of the day, you really haven’t done anything particularly specific. Or you develop a family routine on the Sabbath, and then your family just always does exactly that family routine every Sabbath. that is bad. Right? The point is the point of, like, actually being aware is that you’re choosing to do new things with any individual Sabbath day. It’s it’s not just a this is what we do on the Sabbath, which, again, requires that higher level of personal responsibility. You can’t just accept, oh, here’s the safe thing I can do on the Sabbath, these four things. And I’d I’d really, put caveats here as well in regards to what counts as work for the So work are your rote activities. So even if we don’t make money from our podcast, that would be work on the Sabbath. Even if we don’t make money from having a Twitter account, that would be work on the Sabbath. Yeah. Simone Collins: Right? And emails and phone calls and all that stuff. Malcolm Collins: Emails, phone calls, all that. Money. Because it is a part Simone Collins: of our work. Absolutely. Malcolm Collins: What is clearly allowed by Jesus is any emergency on the Sabbath. He he gives specific examples of this. So if if sheep Like, Simone Collins: if your ox is, like, dick ditch. Malcolm Collins: Yeah. so if, like, the website goes down, you’re allowed to work on that. Simone Collins: If you’re on a space Oh, and, also, it’s really clear down. Public safety and healing work, super important. Like, the the guards of cities didn’t get a day off. There are there are at least two examples that are in my notes. Also, some in the show notes that that include that of, not not Malcolm Collins: Also, war, if I remember correctly. You’re allowed to be a soldier on the Sabbath. Simone Collins: That was for guards. I don’t recall if war. No. But guards, yes. Palace and temple guard duty. So two kings, eleven five to nine. One third of you, those who come off duty on the Sabbath and guard the king’s house, the two divisions of you, which come on duty in force on the Sabbath and guard the house of the Lord on behalf of the king. Meaning that, like, temple and royal guard duty continues on the Sabbath, and this is an early biblical acknowledgment that essential public safety work is permitted. That that’s that’s Malcolm Collins: Which I would extend to keeping a spaceship operational, keeping it to a power plant operational. Anything like that is is obviously allowed in terms of, you know, in five hundred years, people are going over these and being like, okay. What did they really mean by this? Simone Collins: Yeah. Like, you can’t just not milk your cows on the Sabbath, for example. Malcolm Collins: Yes. That would be horribly I mean, I think Jews actually do just not milk their cows on the Sabbath. Simone Collins: They must not have cows Malcolm Collins: that I would look this up. I mean, it’s it’s quite abusive to an animal and would cause them horrible pain. But Simone Collins: Yeah. Malcolm Collins: My guess is either Jews just don’t become farmers or they they don’t care. Simone Collins: They no. They would they would have also, like, how many Orthodox Jew farmers do you know? Generally, observant Jews do not personally milk cows on Shabbat. Malcolm Collins: But they’re not allowed to make somebody else do it either. Simone Collins: The practical exception. Cows cannot safely be left unmilked for an entire day. Yeah. No kidding. Blah blah blah. Jewish law also gives significant weight to preventing animal suffering. So in dairy farming settings, the usual solutions have historically been having non Jewish but woah. Woah. Woah. Woah. Malcolm Collins: You’re not allowed to have non Jewish people Simone Collins: the midst worker milk the cows on Shabbat under careful no. Sweetie, no. Using preconfigured automated milking systems, which do exist. Vallerina Farms, I think, has one. It’s it’s pretty cool. Designed so that the farmer is not directly performing the prohibited act on Shabbat. It’s really fun to watch those milking machines because the cows, like, step in and it, like, will clean their udders first. It’s super cool the way it works. It’s it’s so smart. But those are the Malcolm Collins: cows do it on their own? Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. They’re like when they feel it, they, like, walk up to the machine and it’s and it does it’s really it’s crazy. But, also, I think this is, like, less than five years old. And this is we’ve had dairy cows a lot longer than that, so I don’t think that’s, in urgent animal welfare situations relying on rabbinic guidance for whatever action is necessary to prevent suffering or serious harm. Honestly, though, Jewish milkmaid, like, I just They’re like an urban culture. Yeah. They’re just making a lot of an issue because they Malcolm Collins: ain’t milking cows. So, what I would say here is I Simone Collins: think they were entering the land of milk and honey. Where is the milk coming from? True that. Yeah. Malcolm Collins: Well, I think historically, dairy cows were not as productive as they are today. Simone Collins: Well and, yeah, presumably, also, if you had a dairy cow, you had a calf. And so you just let the calf handle it that day. That’s that’s I I’m also assuming that. They weren’t, like, they weren’t engaged in industrial farming where the dairy cows were separated from their calves. So that might also be the issue at play here is that they just you know? But the point you’re reading Malcolm Collins: is it doesn’t matter what they’re doing because techno puritanism is supposed to be better than that, a better realized version. No. Really. I mean, that’s Simone Collins: the I know. I Malcolm Collins: know. That’s the point. It it’s it’s it’s better, but it also aligns with a reading of the Christian bible. Right? Like, I’m pointing out here all of the arguments I’m making for this are biblical arguments. But if you have two groups, what or let’s say three groups. One practices techno puritan Sabbath. One practices Jewish Sabbath. Simone Collins: Okay. Malcolm Collins: One practices Christian Sabbath. Which of those groups is on the margin going to come out ahead in terms of productivity? I mean, when you could say a forced group that practices no Sabbath at all, I still think the techno puritan group is the group that’s going to come out ahead. it is the so, an example here of, like, what would be allowed is me working on the RFAB website would not be allowed. Me playing a game on the RFAB website would be allowed. me working on making the art system better Simone Collins: would not be allowed. Playing the game helps you get closer to god in some way. Malcolm Collins: No. No. No. No. That’s the whole point. Simone, you’re going back to your weird Simone Collins: You’re what? You’re just hold on, though. You’re just doing as you please. There there was a whole thing about that. Malcolm Collins: No. There was one a one off line about that that you have now clung to when we just spent an hour trying to get you out of that mindset. So what’s the mindset again? Simone Collins: If you turn back this is Isaiah fifty eight thirteen to 14. If you turn your if you turn back your foot from the Sabbath, from doing your pleasure your pleasure on my holy day and call the Sabbath a delight and a holy day of the lord, all caps, honorable. If you honor it, not doing your own ways or seeking your own pleasure or talking idly, then you shall take delight in the lord, and I will make you ride on the heights of the earth. I will feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father for your mouth of the lord has spoken. And and this is exactly what was being addressed by the line I read you earlier. Specifically Those men were not in the field plucking grain because they were doing what they wanted to. They were out there listening to Jesus talk. Malcolm Collins: Yet, formally, when you did not know god, you were enslaved by that nature. But now that you have come to know god rather and rather and be known by god, how can you turn your back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world whose slaves you want to be once more? You observed the days and months and seasons of years. I am afraid that you have labored in vain. the point being, Simone, is all of those restrictions were meant for your benefit, and you have now inverted that. You have made the point of the restrictions the restrictions themselves because you are attempting to interpret what was originally laid down in the way a Jew would, where if you instead read it as saying Simone Collins: I’m not saying you’re not allowed to have fun or be happy or regenerate. I’m just saying that the regeneration is supposed to bring you closer to god. No. Incorrect. Malcolm Collins: It is it is it is sorry. In what way? If you are putting if if what you are putting as a restriction on the Sabbath, okay, is you can only do entertainment activities that bring you closer to god, that is Does it make you a Simone Collins: stronger person? Like, through a techno puritan lens, I would argue it’s anything that makes you and your family more likely to That is promote future human flourishing. Malcolm Collins: Into performance. The very reason I’m making it absolutely clear that that is not that I have I have said you can watch despicable me. You can play games Simone Collins: on web site. It with your family. Malcolm Collins: Can make art, not necessarily if you discuss it with your web. Simone Collins: You can make art if you’re learning a new skill, if it makes you a stronger person and therefore more able to do your work especially choose Malcolm Collins: what is best for you in regards to personally Okay. So what if gambling Simone Collins: is you know, sports gambling is best for me on the weekends. I’m gonna go to DraftKings. Malcolm Collins: Then you have made an incorrect moral choice, which is why this is harder than just following a simple set of rules. Simone Collins: Okay. But So what’s a good example of good for you, but something that would give someone pause if they if they saw it publicly? If there was a live feed of everything that you were doing on the Sabbath and everyone would be giving you the side eye, and you’d have to explain to them why they get it wrong. Malcolm Collins: It would be any purely entertainment activity. You can play video games. people would say, oh, you can’t play video games. But if video games are your fastest form of rest and recuperment and refocus, then, yes, absolutely. Because the point of the Sabbath is twofold. As I as I said earlier, it is about rest, which you keep forgetting, the rest part, and everybody has different ways of resting. And then the second thing is it’s about self improvement. Okay? If you remove the rest part, if you say because anything Simone Collins: most No. You’re right. The the part I’m most undercounting because I I hate the idea of the Sabbath so freaking much. I’m assuming that it has to be miserable. That, yeah, that it’s not allowed to be useful in any way, but you’re absolutely right. I mean, God rested on on the seventh day. It’s hard work. Malcolm Collins: Allowed to watch Bridgerton on the Sabbath, Simone, if you want to. If you want to in your room Simone Collins: Well, first off, we can’t because we don’t have a Netflix subscription, so FML. Malcolm Collins: But If you want to, in your room, watch Bridgerton at night or whatever, put the kids down, and it’s the Sabbath, you are completely allowed within a techno puritan context. Where you might have moderate restrictions on something like that is if you watched Bridgerton every night that week. Simone Collins: What do you mean? So Oh, you mean, like, it’s not well, people engage in rest active micro rests throughout the week. You know? It’s it’s not like Malcolm Collins: Okay. Yeah. I guess. So for, like, a longer form of rest, if you’d been watching Bridgerton every day that week and then you wanted to do a longer Simone Collins: Yeah. I mean, like, you you sleep at night every single day, and there might be a day where you sleep in, you know, traditionally because you’re sleep deprived, but that doesn’t mean you don’t need sleep throughout the week. Malcolm Collins: Oh, actually, this is a really good thing to ban, and I’m glad that it came up in context. Uh-oh. Simone Collins: What are we banning? What are we banning? Malcolm Collins: So what we’re banning is, the normal rest routine that you undertake on a day to day basis. So the rest not sleeping. No. That’s not what I meant. Simone Collins: Okay. Malcolm Collins: And you know that’s not what I meant. Simone Collins: Well, then no. I I I just have no idea what you mean. Malcolm Collins: If every day that week, you watched an episode of Bridgerton before you went to bed that night Simone Collins: Which I don’t because we don’t have a Netflix subscription. Malcolm Collins: I understand. That form of just wasteful rote thing that you do during the day Is not allowed. You are allowed to binge Bridgerton for three hours. You are not allowed to just do your normal because you’re engaging with the the the rest. Simone Collins: So what you’re saying is is an an important element you think of the Sabbath is also a a break from the general routine. Yes. Not do what you always do even when it’s what you do to rest and and cease cease cease. Yes. Okay. I like that. I like that as as a you’ve got to shake it up. Because when we for example, one thing we do appreciate, and there are very few things these days that we appreciate about travel, the one thing we appreciate is it allows us to return to the day to day with more appreciation for those activities and a little bit of perspective. And if you completely shift up what you’re doing in terms of your activities on a day, you’re gonna probably return to the the the work, the day to day stuff with more awareness and Yes. That’s the idea. I like that. Okay. I do also trying Malcolm Collins: to the the other reason I I I want to break those moments up for people Is because those are the the ways that in our lives we waste time that we are the most unaware of. Simone Collins: Right. It’s very mindless time wasting. Because at that point, you’re just mentally exhausted and you don’t wanna think, and so you do the thing. Malcolm Collins: And so by having Like, Simone Collins: you you can’t you can’t watch then. And I can’t watch stupid cozy British mysteries, which is now my thing because that’s Malcolm Collins: all the crime has. Can’t What do is watch in the way that I would on an average night. Okay. You’re gonna make this so mentally taxing, but Simone Collins: I understand why. I get it. The rep the rep is the point. Malcolm Collins: The the point is that you are recognizing a no. The rep isn’t the point. Simone Collins: The point is actually the noticing. It’s it’s I’m saying I’m the noticing is the rep. I’m I’m I’m returning to my metaphor now. Malcolm Collins: Noticing the ways in which you waste time with rote tasks And living a day without those rote tasks can help you, from an outside perspective, reanalyze those wrote tasks Okay. Simone Collins: I’m feeling called out here. Malcolm Collins: And seeing if they’re actually a useful part of your daily structure. Simone Collins: Okay, Malcolm. I see what you’re doing. He hates how I spend my time, but he doesn’t do the laundry. He doesn’t clean the floors. He doesn’t clean the toilets. He doesn’t make all the meals. He doesn’t he’s like, you’re wasting your time. What are you doing? Malcolm Collins: And I Doesn’t do the dishes. You disappeared one day, I would do those things in a different way. I do them once a month or twice once every two months. Simone Collins: Do you know how screwed I am if you die? We’ve been to people’s houses like this. Like, there we have some friends who live like that. They hire people to come and, like, clean once a week in this case, which I think is is more what you would have to do. And when I go to their house, I cannot help but begin to try to clean. And if I don’t, I will have a panic attack. I will have a panic attack because the kitchen sink is just full of dishes, and the dishes are just sitting. The laundry is just a giant pile of the whole way, and I can’t. Malcolm Collins: But if you the the reason why this is important, Simone Simone Collins: By the way, that is not that is not that is daily toil. There’s a totally different Hebrew word for that. That is not Malcolm Collins: I understand. But, again, we don’t do it the way the Jews do it. Simone Collins: Yeah. Well, you know what? Someone’s gotta do it in our house, or I will trip and fall and kill myself. Malcolm Collins: The point I am making here Yeah. Is that it would be very easy if you wanted to, specifically if you wanted to, to just turn the the Sabbath into a day where you spend all day cleaning the house. Yeah. And that’s not what you’re supposed to do, is it? Simone Collins: No. Okay. I just Look. I will look. We live by the the solemn proclamation of Ray Kroc who said, if you can lean, you can clean. Meaning that cleaning is not an activity. It is not a duty. It is a an an unconscious action that takes place the moment you discover your body has stopped moving. Okay? It is something that it seamlessly is integrated with every every movement across a room is is an opportunity to carry something from its improper place to its proper place. Malcolm Collins: Okay, Simone. Simone Collins: Okay? There’s there’s no act of cleaning. It it is a mindset, not an action. Okay? Malcolm Collins: I freaking hate you so much. I don’t know how I married you. Simone Collins: You’re so lucky to have a personal maid and chef and laundress. Laundress. I was gonna say laundromat, but that is not the right word. Not that you tax me on that front. That’s the kids. You like, every three months, you’re like, here’s my laundry. What is wrong with you? Malcolm Collins: The shirt I’m wearing now smells quite bad at this point, so I should get Simone Collins: Can we will you should here’s what we can do. If I left a laundry hamper outside your room, would you put things in there? I see that you don’t wanna take them down. I mean, obviously, it’s like going to Mordor to make it from your room. Malcolm Collins: I also think actually, I should I should talk about for other people’s lives as well, the types of things that would be allowed. One thing to note is, like, something that would be allowed is if on the weekday, you are a geneticist working for a company. Okay? If on the Sabbath, you want to be a geneticist that pursues your own experiments Simone Collins: Oh, totally. Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. 100%. If you’re Malcolm Collins: a coder who codes for company and then on the Sabbath Simone Collins: You make a make your own video game. Yeah. Well, Malcolm Collins: absolutely. And your family. That’s completely a Simone Collins: lie. No. Yeah. It’s bigger problem. Cessation. It’s the cessation. Malcolm Collins: But if during the week, you make video games for yourself, you can’t do that on the seventh. Or if during the week, you are a genetic mad scientist, you don’t get to be a genetic mad scientist on the seventh. Simone Collins: 100%. 100%. It’s also not the day where you go corporate one day a week. That’s that’s not also it’s not I don’t think that’s proper either. But, yes, I I I’m with you on that. Malcolm Collins: Okay. So now we we have agreed. Simone Collins: Oh, but also we agree that we’re not buying anything on the Sabbath. Malcolm Collins: I think that we Come on. It’s No. It’s it’s a it’s a frequent rule to not buy every anything on Simone Collins: the Sabbath. Other people work. Yeah. And, like, oh, do like, to engage in trade and commerce and especially to make other people work. Malcolm Collins: But but, again, we are not Jews. It is different for us. That, for example, is not a restriction on going to museums. Okay? That is not a restriction on a family activity that involves a performer. It is not a restriction on going to a Renaissance fair, for example, where people are performers. It’s not a it’s not a restriction on going to a medieval times with your kids. Simone Collins: We don’t have access to medieval times. But, yeah, Malcolm Collins: Ren Fare is going up. But I’m giving you an example of what this would not be a restriction. Simone Collins: That would be a fun base camp meetup, a Ren Fare. Malcolm Collins: It is it is a restriction of going shopping. Okay? It is a restriction of going to a grocery store. It is a and and doing that week shopping. It’s a restriction of going to BJ’s. It’s a restriction of buying stuff on Amazon that you need for whatever. It’s a restriction of, the type of a buying that is rote. I would not say no buying at all. where I would put, so for example, if you are thinking of things that would improve your kid’s life and because it’s a Sabbath and you’re approaching your life differently that day, you decide to focus on, like, what’s gonna be help my kids or, oh, I wanna learn a new AI system today. Oh, I don’t have this system, but it looks like it would be the best one to use today. You’re completely allowed to purchase that. It is not a blanket ban on purchases in the way that the Jews practice it. Such an anti Jew episode. Well, I mean, we you are the one who wants us to be like the Jews in the way we practice the Sabbath. Simone Collins: So you’d wanna do you wanna do run fair on a Saturday? I’m looking at tickets. See, if I buy the tickets, no. Oh my god. It’s $42.95 for one adult. Malcolm Collins: I have to keep clarifying for you, Simone That it is not the Jewish way. Okay? We don’t Simone Collins: do I’m aware of that, but also, like, $42.95 for one adult. Malcolm Collins: So Remember remember when I said that she has a very Jewish mind? If we were to do Simone Collins: two adults and then how many children do we even have? I mean, let’s just pretend that oh, god. No. They would probably charge us for oh, yeah. Five to 11. Okay. So we have well, we would pretend that Titan’s not five. So we’ll just say two kids then even though Titan is well, she’s almost five. So yeah. So two adults and then two kids over five would cost oh god. They’re trying to get me to buy $20 Renaissance Faire mugs along with my tickets. A $133. I mean, how do people leave their houses anymore? Maybe when we’re making more money. Yeah. We got who because the work we I feel like if we go there, we’re just gonna be, you know, hobnobbing with billionaires. We have to put on the, you know, our our bow tie. You show up in black. You should show up in black tie. You’re in Malcolm Collins: your tux. Simone Collins: Oh, that would be so delightful putting on the Ritz for the Red Faire to be with them, nepo babies and billionaires because they Malcolm Collins: can show up Simone Collins: in big bucks. The last time we went, we went with a a Nebo Baby trust fund friend. Malcolm Collins: Oh, that’s lovely. And I love you, Simone. I thought this episode was really good. Yeah. I’m glad that we got a chance to talk through this because, clearly, you were in significant disagreement at first. Simone Collins: Look. No. We ultimately agree on the important things. And I understand now where you’re coming from with trying to excuse video games. But I know I I really think that you make a good point that if you’re stressed out and exhausted after the Sabbath, something’s not right. You’ve not, yeah, you’ve missed the point. And I 100% agree Malcolm Collins: with you. Way to think of it, Simone. The reason why things like video games are allowed is it is essentially an enforced vacation day. Simone Collins: Right. But a vacation day that’s a real vacation for you. And for us, many people’s vacation day activities are, like, white knuckle. I think I’d rather be punched in the stomach 10 times really, really hard instead of go through that. You know I mean? Malcolm Collins: The things you actually enjoy Yeah. Is what you should focus on. The only sin is the things that are rote. Simone Collins: Yeah. Because I thought it was gonna like, you were gonna force us to, like, you know, sit in, like, a room together for ten hours straight just kinda staring at each other and talking. I’m ready for that. I was like, oh my god. I don’t know if our marriage could take Malcolm Collins: You’re the one who wanted to make it so we couldn’t even leave the house. You’re like, no. Simone Collins: Well, look. The field. The the our house has it contains multitudes. There have been long extent periods when we’ve been snowed in, and we have not left the house. So Anyway, Malcolm Collins: love you. Simone Collins: I love you too. Well, Toast, he was homeschooling next to me today. We just had this long conversation about how he was getting very confused about eyes being open or closed with with being dead. He’s like, well, like, when I’m dead, my eyes will be closed. And I’m like, not necessarily. Like, if if you die with your eyes open, your eyes will be open. If you die with your eyes closed, your eyes will be closed. And unless someone moves them, they’re not gonna you know? But he was like, well, but if my eyes are open, then I’m not dead. Like, won’t I see something? And I’m like, no. You you’re you won’t see anything because you’re dead. Then that whole thing, he’s like, oh, because my ghost just left me. And we’re like, well, we don’t believe in ghosts. We don’t believe in souls. And he’s like, wait. So then, you know, what am I? And I’m like, well, you you are a combination of your your thoughts and your actions and your body and your experiences. And that’s not gonna be here when you’re dead, though. A very, very smart, intelligent AI could theoretically reconstruct those things, and that’s what the future police is gonna do. And he’s like, well, but and then it’s just a super long conversation, and it’s all because he couldn’t really work out eyes open and closed if you’re dead. And that was just one of the many. Malcolm Collins: Well, it’s good that you’re having conversations with our kids about what we believe. Simone Collins: Oh, it’s it’s all of homeschooling days, it’s like just before that, it was the differences between a moth and a butterfly. So it’s it’s it’s all the things. And he he has these moments where he’s like, I like, he’s studying shapes now because it’s just kindergarten, and he’s like, I well, but I can’t concentrate because I’m so distracted by by all the shapes around me. There’s so many circles. There’s so many triangles. I just like picturing his, like, his existence of just, like, the shapes, the shapes. He can’t he can’t unsee them now that he sees them. Because I was like, well, you see what this this here? Now you know what it is. It’s a hex nut. Why is it called the hex nut? He’s like, you made a face like you just blew his mind. Yeah. Homeschool is weird. Yeah. What have you been up to? You know, just drinking milk, I guess. Normal. You’re gonna need to do a boat testing day. Not this weekend because it’s gonna be rainy, and there’s a big windstorm coming, but you’re gonna need to do it maybe next weekend to make Malcolm Collins: sure That works for me, Simone. That the things work. Very excited. I can do it. Well, actually, that’s a good question. Is that something I could do on the Sabbath? That’s a Yes. Simone Collins: That is a fine family activity on the Sabbath if you’re teaching your kids about safety and spending time together. But yeah. Malcolm Collins: Here. I’ll get a Of Simone Collins: course, I was likely you can’t leave your place, but then you’re like, yeah. Malcolm Collins: You can. No. We’ll get into that.