Title: Are Male Witches Just Scientists? (Witches Vs. Logic) — episode transcript
Work: Techno-Puritan Supplemental Writings
Citation: TPS 80.2
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Source: https://basedcamppodcast.substack.com/p/are-male-witches-just-scientists
Kind: unedited episode transcript (auto-captioned verbatim speech; expect speaker labels and disfluencies)
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### Are Male Witches Just Scientists? (Witches Vs. Logic) — episode transcript

**Simone Collins**: Hello, Malcolm. I’m excited to speak with you today because we need to ask, because the occult reached the sorry state it’s in because women have taken it over or because something else has gone wrong? I I started wondering this because I watched this video called the occult has become too feminine, an argument presented by a male, I think, Christian occultist on YouTube who goes by Broken Rune. And he argued that the problem with the modern occult is that it has been feminized, making everything about feelings and therapy. And for him, the occult needs both masculine and feminine influence, and he hates that mistresses of now is just new age hippie stuff in his words. And he wants to bring back the wizard, the paladin, the druid, the sage. And I’m like, okay. I’ll bite. What is masculine mysticism anyway? I kind of like... Gandalf is cool. Right? So maybe it’s kind of cool. And so I... I’ve kinda fell down a bit of a rabbit hole, and I came to two potential conclusions. One is our same conclusion always with mysticism, which is it’s incredibly stupid, and I hate it, and it’s just gonna make you go crazy. The other conclusion is actually there’s no such thing as male wizards because they’re just scientists. That males... Male wizardry is literally just science. And then once you actually get better tools in, like, history and society

**Malcolm Collins**:
I completely agree with this. This is the most sex mistake you’ve ever had, Simone. Oh god. Wizardry is just science and AI, Nancy.

**Simone Collins**:
I I I think that’s true, though.

**Malcolm Collins**:
And as we you’re doing real stuff. See, women, they go and they pretend to have power, and they pretend to do stuff. And because there’s no feedback loop, they just go off in their occult nonsense. And men are like, okay. Did it work? And if you’re like, well, I guess it did. I’m like, okay. Well, then why aren’t you rich? Why aren’t you powerful? Why aren’t you... And the answer is because they didn’t work. But my AI, Nancy, is doing wonders right now. It can it can generate so many fun things, like our new channel of, MAWA being read to people if people want to

**Simone Collins**:
Yeah. Villainous comics that you can you can have read to you while you see the comic pages.

**Speaker 3**:
I also threw together another music video about Malfoyd,

**Speaker 9**:
He swept in at nine as he does every day,

**Speaker 8**:
arranging the potions in the

**Speaker 9**:
usual way. But the face, will you look at the face?

**Speaker 8**:
He brewed something that changed his damn race.

**Speaker 9**:
So I raised my hand and I asked him, tone alight. Professor, you really white. Right?

**Speaker 8**:
And the room went still. I got cast an unforgivable. The ranger went pale, and her expression livid full. He’s always been like this. Cried the whole Gryffindoroh. He’s always been like this. And how dare you not know. It’s who he was born, not a choice that he made. And who cares what he tells people when he gets laid.

**Speaker 10**:
So just some notes because people in the last video said, I wish you had a channel for your songs. I wish you had Jitsu songs. We do. It’s in the top pinned comment, or you can just look up Base Camp Music on YouTube. It Two, obviously, this is using the Snape race swap as a trans allegory. I feel I should explain this for people who are dumb or don’t catch on. and, three, if you wanna make these yourself or you want to give any coding agent you have easy ability to make images and videos and music and phone calls, just go to rfab.ai backslash API. It will automatically assign you one. It will automatically write the message you need to write for your AI. You copy and paste that. You put it in your AI. And going forward, it will know how to do that. You don’t need to do anything else. There is no more technical capability than that. Then I copy and paste of what is it rfab.a I backslash API.

**Simone Collins**:
I think you make a really good point. The thing we always tell our kids is that magic is just science that you don’t yet understand. And here’s actually the key differentiation that I’m going to be getting to in this video as we explore male wizardry yesterday and today, which is basically that men who enter the world of wizardry end up in one of two categories. One, they just become scientists, and two, they fail at science and stay in the occult, which is very interesting. For example, just today, I don’t know why, but I was listening to a video where, like, some dude was talking about how women use glamour magic. and they were talking about it in very intentional terms, which was like, well, they all like... Well, he was kinda... He was he was implying that they were wearing crystals to do this, but he’s like, well, they know what to wear, and they know how to, like, look a certain way. And I I mean, that’s called, like, wearing makeup and address... Like, taking care of yourself in a systematic way to appear more attractive to people using science. Well understood evolutionary science where we can understand what things attract people and why, like, very clearly. And so, anyway, I I think that’s interesting. But, anyway, we’ll get back to just sort of the top of this where I wanted to understand first, based on broken runes argument, if male mystics really are gone. And so I looked at Google Ngram viewer comparing which wizard, paladin, druid, and sage. And while I hate to break it to broken rune, when I looked at it, witches have been dominating since at least the Middle Ages per Google and grand viewer at least. Like, wizards just aren’t really a thing. Do do you wanna see it? Sure. So you can see here, this goes from 1,500 to twenty twenty two. Okay? The the blue is which? You can see from, like, fifteen fifty onward, which is way bigger than wizard. And then in 1800, Sage... Don’t ignore this because Sage is big in cooking. Sage is... People like to cook with Sage. So no one... That’s not real. But, like, look at Red, which is wizard. Wizard has always been insanely small, insanely small compared to witches. So I don’t even know if he’s onto something by arguing that, you know, wizards used to be a thing.

**Malcolm Collins**:
I I don’t think they did. It did... Just doesn’t... There... Like, occultism kind of... I think it appealed to men more when it was less obviously wrong. Yeah. This is where

**Simone Collins**:
When it was... No. It appealed to them more when it was freaking science, and you’ll see this. Weirdly, I I can’t explain this, though. If you look at Google Google Trends here, wizard and witch are actually pretty close. You can see that witch is blue, and wizard is is red. And this is 2024 to... Sorry. 2004 to present. So I don’t know why. I... Oh, wait. No. I do know why. You know why? Why? Harry Potter.

**Malcolm Collins**:
Oh, yes. Of course.

**Simone Collins**:
I... What was I thinking? Of course. Never mind. So wizards, yeah, wizards, they’re not a thing. and then I also... I I I did one other check because I’m like, maybe I’m just not really looking at this the right way. And so I I asked I did... If... You know the book Malleus Maleficarum? The the witch hunting book? The one where they talk about the stealing penises and that we gotta hunt witches and blah blah blah. It’s a very famous book.

**Malcolm Collins**:
Okay. No. I... I’m not that familiar with it.

**Simone Collins**:
Okay. Well, it’s... It... I think it’s a Middle Ages, like, medieval book about witches. And I I wanted to look at that. Like, well, if if that book mentions male practitioners, maybe they were a bigger thing. So I I checked to see if malleus maleficarum is a focus only on female witches or if it mentions wizards or paladins or druids. It’s overwhelmingly focused on women, but it doesn’t say that only women practice witchcraft. The author, Heinrich Kramer, argues that women are more likely than men to be witches, and the book also discusses male practitioners and condemns any form of sorcery and divination. But, basically, he’s like, it’s women who are problematic with this, which I think is interesting. But even though, at least in literature historically, you don’t see a lot of the the use of the word wizard or paladin or sage, you really just see the word witch a lot. There were historical wizards that were, like, real people.

**Speaker 4**:
Sorry. Does it annoy anyone else that whoever wrote this keeps looping in paladins with wizard and witches? Paladins just, like, pray and are protected by god. Right? They they don’t have... They’re specifically for killing wizard and witches. Right? Like, that’s their whole jam. Right? You think that just because somebody has powers that are not holistically human, a Paladin’s powers all come from god, all come from prayer.

**Simone Collins**:
But I... You’ll see. I really think that they’re scientists. So why don’t you... You can judge with each person I’m gonna give you, okay, who, like, come up in history as historical wizards. So first, we’re gonna start with John d. Born in 1527, he was an English mathematician and adviser to Elizabeth the first who practiced alchemy and astrology and undertook ritual attempts to communicate with angels through scrying. And scrying is, like, basically crystal bar... Ball gazing. It it could be... You might use other, like, crystals or mirrors, but it’s basically crystal bar... Ball gazing. I keep wanting to say crystal crystal par. But, anyway, he he tried to communicate with angels. And then with Edward Kelly, he developed the angelic system now known as Enochian magic. And Edward Kelly is also a famous notable wizard who was his scryer and ritual collaborator. And he said that he could see and hear angels in crystals and mirrors, and he relayed their messages and instructions during these elaborate spiritual experiments. But it just kinda sounds like he’s schizophrenic. So to me, I’m reading that John Dee probably was a scientist, but that Edward Kelly was schizophrenic. What... What’s your read with them?

**Malcolm Collins**:
I guess.

**Simone Collins**:
Okay. Then we’ll get to Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa. He was born in 1486, so a little bit earlier. He was a German scholar and author of three books of occult philosophy, which was one of the defining Renaissance works on natural celestial and ceremonial magic. He treated magic as this organized body of knowledge and practice. I also see him as someone who’s trying to understand reality and probably more like a protoscientist. Then there’s Giordano Bruno, born in 1548. He died in 1600. He was an Italian philosopher and former friar who developed hermetic memory practices designed to link the mind and cosmic powers. That just sounds like the occult. Yeah. But his memory magic was intended to transform the practitioner, and not just improve your memory. But you didn’t

**Malcolm Collins**:
know back then. Like, when when, what’s his face? Newton was working on occult stuff. Right? There just wasn’t enough information to fully know it absolutely didn’t work. Based on common information at the time, you could have believed it worked.

**Simone Collins**:
Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So he... His particular interest, Isaac Newton Newton that is, was obviously in physics and in mathematics, which turned out to be very real fields in which he was extremely influential. But, yes, he was also very interested in alchemy, but also Malcolm in biblical prophecy. But guess who’s into that too?

**Malcolm Collins**:
Who?

**Simone Collins**:
We are. I mean, like, we’re at least into, like, biblical prophecy chronology and hidden divine principles in nature. Yeah. We’re always talking about how, like, oh

**Malcolm Collins**:
my god. Like, the bible called it

**Simone Collins**:
with this. The bible called it with the Garden of Eden. We’re doing the same thing. So you can see that people who are very interested in understanding reality are going to get caught up in stuff that can see

**Malcolm Collins**:
Well, it’s it’s it’s very different in the way that we’re doing it. Right? Like, we are applying it

**Simone Collins**:
to Is it different from the way Newton did it?

**Malcolm Collins**:
yes. Okay. Because Newton did not yet know that this stuff just didn’t work, which

**Simone Collins**:
means used investigative methods. Yeah.

**Malcolm Collins**:
Which are really just wishy thinking and Yeah. And hexes and stuff like that. Right?

**Simone Collins**:
Like Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. I guess very similar to, like, when ghosts were a big thing in the early nineteen hundreds, how, like, very devoted but also scientific people were like, look. When I die, I will send you a message because we know ghosts can send messages. And then lo and behold, they don’t send a message and... Okay. So that was fake. You know? I, yeah, I I see what you’re saying. Okay. There’s also Paracelsus, who was born in 1493. He was a Swiss physician, alchemist, and medical reformer, and his healing system would combine chemical remedies with astrology and occult properties in nature and elemental beings and his belief that hidden forces could be discovered and used. So I don’t know. I’m I’m on I’m on the... With with medical stuff I don’t I don’t

**Malcolm Collins**:
know if this is a

**Simone Collins**:
productive line of conversation because we’re well aware that just in this period, there wasn’t a difference. Then let’s talk about modern wizards, because there were two ones that I hadn’t heard about before, but were mentioned by Broken Room, this YouTuber who is lamenting the female dominance of the occult field. Would you like to learn about them? Have you have you heard

**Malcolm Collins**:
a super feminine field and has a super feminine mind and doesn’t realize it. Right? Like, that a man would be repulsed by this sort of stuff and that men generally are and have been throughout history repulsed by occultism. It is why despite the allure of occultism, it has never really caught on in the societies that were doing well at... That men dominated. Right? Like, you would see it in the faltering societies. The societies was less technology or less efficiency, but they think that they were struggling....

**Simone Collins**:
The very most now, and we’ve done a whole episodes on the the penis stealing fears in Africa.

**Malcolm Collins**:
Yeah. No. I mean, when a people believes in this stuff, we think of them as backwards.

**Simone Collins**:
The human sacrifices in Mexico.

**Malcolm Collins**:
Yeah. Great. It has always been in the populations that hunt witches that we have always had the greatest technological explosions as a species. Oh. And the two things generally go sort of hand in hand. You have a witch hunt one century. Next century, big explosion in technology in a in a region.

**Simone Collins**:
I love that. that’s very interesting. Hot take. Witch hunts, solid. But only for real witches, not like Karen hunts, not like Karen’s on a rampage.

**Malcolm Collins**:
That is what witch hunts were, Simone.

**Simone Collins**:
Well, no. No. But what I mean is is about... It’s about occultism because witch hunt is a word

**Malcolm Collins**:
used for No. No. No. Witch hunts were about the... What the witch was to a community is today what we call a Karen. They were a small town.

**Simone Collins**:
But what I’m trying to say is today, the modern connotation of witch hunt is a cancel mob, and that’s not what we’re talking about. We’re talking about actual witches.

**Malcolm Collins**:
I meant, like, you actually hunt hunt them. Witches. I’m not talking about a cancel mob or something

**Simone Collins**:
like that.

**Malcolm Collins**:
I’m saying a bit like, these people never should have been able to to reach these these numbers. See our episode on swamp hacks. because, historically, we would have called these women, that are now marching and with signs and blocking ICE officers swamp hacks. They would have Yeah.

**Simone Collins**:
Well, those are totally different.

**Malcolm Collins**:
And a bunch of crystals and then, you know, like, slightly obese and gross looking and no kids, of course. And everyone would have told their kid, Jimmy, I know she says she has powers, but don’t go talk to her. Only bad things will come of this. And then the the inquisition comes through, and they go, where are your witches? And I’m like, it’s a it’s a... The lady in the swamp who won’t up about crystals.

**Simone Collins**:
Yes. Well And who thinks

**Malcolm Collins**:
we need to be doing more, I don’t know, Native American stuff?

**Simone Collins**:
I... Okay. Yes. Well, I mean, also, we need to point out that there are all the Etsy witches and all the witch talk people and all the witch influencers and the witch books and all of that. There’s there’s a lot. There’s a lot going on right now with actual witches and not just Karen’s, you know, no kings protests. That’s that’s kind of a different thing. But I guess you’re trying to argue there are many brands of witches now. Anyway, Broken Rune highlights two more modern men of the occult, Rudolf Steiner and Manly p Hall. Are you aware of them? Do you know about them? No. He says that there are examples of the male wizard figure he thinks is missing from today’s occult culture. And they’re they’re men who very publicly pursued hidden knowledge and tried to explain it rather than treating it spiritually or as, like, a a comfort. You know? It wasn’t like tarot cards to help you feel better about your bad mood or whatever. So Rudolf Steiner is... Well, Broken Room calls him probably one of his biggest ideological influences. So, like, the manly man of the occult world really like him. He portrays Steiner as someone who combined Christian belief and mystical experience with an industrial age respect for science, And he believed the occult explained the spiritual side of reality like science explains the physical side of reality. So I guess the problem that we would have with this prior is that there is no spiritual side of reality. There’s nothing there. But per Broken Runesigner’s occult science aimed at investigative spiritual reality with academic rigor, he wasn’t trying to predict the future or cast love spells, and that’s why he liked them. But here’s the thing about this guy is normally people who get into the occult either, like, may poison a religion. Like, we would argue maybe has happened a lot with Judaism or at least many parts of Judaism. Instead, like, his legacy is actually weirdly influential. So he helped establish the first Waldorf school in Stuttgart in 1919. And Waldorf schools are still, I would say, a house

**Malcolm Collins**:
So I was right on the podcast when I was like, Waldorf was the cult thing. Right?

**Simone Collins**:
It was a... Yeah. It wasn’t a... Well, not a cult thing. I mean, it was a cult thing, but it’s also an occult thing. and he originally established it for children of workers at the Waldorf Astoria cigarette factory, which I also didn’t know. Because when you hear Waldorf, at least when I grew up, I was like, that sounds fancy. But, really, it’s for these children of cigarette factory workers, which is totally different from what I thought. But the gist of Waldorf education is that it emphasizes developmental stages and storytelling and arts and music and movement and handwork and practical skills and sort of a delayed emphasis on abstract academics. Like, he... At least one of the leaders, I don’t think this guy, but they were like, well, a a child should not learn how to read until all their baby teeth are out, which is interesting because I don’t know about tooth development and, you know, being ready to read. But, apparently, it works really well for some people, and it’s still now an international network of more than a thousand schools. So he left that legacy. He also... And this is something that I heard a lot about when I was doing, like, my environmental business degree and, like, trying to, like

**Malcolm Collins**:
Okay.

**Simone Collins**:
Work in sustainability. But through his 1924 agriculture course, he originated biodynamic agriculture, which was definitely a buzzword that came up in a bunch of my coursework, where it it treats the farm as this integrated living organism, emphasizing soil health and composting and crop and animal diversity and ecological relationships. And it influenced organic and regenerative farming, although its astrological and and and preparation practices aren’t... They kind of got left out of the stuff that people did. But part of what he was doing made a lot of sense, and so that’s that’s also interesting. There’s other stuff that didn’t really catch on as much like his medicine and care stuff, but his followers developed anthrophysophical medicine. Oh, I should explain. He founded anthro... Anthrophysophy anthrophysophy anthrophysophy. He founded Anthroposophy, which is this comprehensive spiritual philosophical system that’s focused on human freedom and inner development and reincarnation and karma and then all these supposed methods for spiritual perception. And so they focused on that. And when people brought that into medicine, they wanted to sort of continue conventional care with additional remedies and therapies derived from the end growth.

**Malcolm Collins**:
Why were you studying this in school?

**Simone Collins**:
I didn’t study the medicine and care stuff. I studied the agriculture, biodynamic agriculture. I had no idea that the concept of biodynamic agriculture came from a wizard. Well, I mean, a man studying the occult. That’s pretty crazy. Like, it’s it’s kind of insane to me that that got that far. His medical stuff didn’t really catch on. He also created in sort of the art movement and architecture space this concept of urithomy, which is a performing art in which movement is intended to express sounds and the meanings of speech in the structure of music, which doesn’t make any sense to me, and I’ve never heard

**Malcolm Collins**:
of it by no means of that word. Like interpretive dance.

**Simone Collins**:
Yeah. And he also, in terms of social and economic thought, proposed the idea of social threefolding in which cultural life... Democratic, legal, political life, and then economic life should be relatively independent. And he advocated for freedom in education and culture, equality and civic rights, and cooperation rather than pure competition in economic life. But I don’t really know how that’s all supposed to work in, like, modern society. So that didn’t really go anywhere either. But his his most durable accomplishment per people who like to chronicle his work is turning this broad spiritual worldview into working institutions like the Waldorf School and, like, biodynamic agriculture. And, allegedly, even some clinics and pharmaceutical companies have taken his medical ideas and run with them. So somehow, this man who was into the occult managed to get kind of far. And part of what I think happened is he, like, intuitively understood or was looking at some systems from a more holistic systems based perspective and then just happened to also be into the occult. So a good example with biodynamic agriculture. You know, he’s like, well, we have to do it. Like, there’s all this sort of woo woo astrological preparation stuff, which everyone threw out, and then they just tech... The... Took the systems based stuff. So it just sounds like he was a really good systems thinker. Then in terms of Manly p Hall, Broken Rune talks about his book that he wrote called the secret teachings of all ages, which is this ambitious attempt to teach the public about mysticism and philosophy. Like, he was trying to just

**Malcolm Collins**:
Well, I mean, I point out with the other guy, the stuff of his that impacted society and we still use is the non mysticism stuff.

**Simone Collins**:
Exactly. All of the Oh, good point. Yes.

**Malcolm Collins**:
Was thrown out. Yeah. When he’s like If

**Simone Collins**:
you go... If you take your kid to a Waldorf school, they’re not gonna be like, and we wait until your children’s teeth are only adult teeth. Like, they would... That would... They would never do that. They’re like, no. This seems

**Malcolm Collins**:
to help me but they do do that.

**Simone Collins**:
Well, they don’t tell you, but they do do that. Yeah. Right. But tell you that.

**Malcolm Collins**:
But the, the mysticism stuff has all been dropped because it doesn’t work. Right? Like, that’s why it’s... It doesn’t follow on. Even these people, when you look at great thinkers of the past, if they were great thinkers cross fields, most witches of today would be aware of Isaac Newton’s contribution to the field of witchcraft. Yet it seems that it’s only the charismatic ones who do nothing but charisma based stuff who contribute to the field, not the smart ones, which to me tends to indicate a field that’s not actually developing.

**Simone Collins**:
Yeah. Yeah. But I still appreciate his attempt to try to under... Like, he he seemed to just be kind of confused about it. And he did kind of believe in science, but then he just really wanted mysticism to believe. And that’s a trend that I saw come through as well with the other guy, Manley P. Hall, who wrote the secret teachings of all ages. Because it seems like... Here’s a man who, like, likes... He he appreciates the reality of the world, but he just really wants things to be extra mystical. And so the book is basically like, hey. Please learn to read the symbolic language embedded in religion and mythology and art and nature, and then just use that understanding in your moral and spiritual development. But, like, what I read from that is basically

**Malcolm Collins**:
like waste of time.

**Simone Collins**:
You’re supposed to to, like, read everything in the literal sense, but then be like, oh, it’s magical. And that just seems like we can appreciate it. We don’t even have to, like, spend a lot of time pretending that it... Like, throwing glitter on it just to make it seem sparkly.

**Malcolm Collins**:
It’s it’s already sparkly. That actually robs things of their beauty.

**Simone Collins**:
Yeah. Leave the elegance. See, the magic is in the elegance. The magic is in the science. I mean, science is better than magic because it’s magic we understand. That’s the cool part about it. But... Yeah. I mean, in terms of what exists for male dominated mysticism today, a lot of the people who are seen as mystical and who went through initiations into this mysticism, like, with the the Freemasons are largely gone. And that’s one of the things that Rune bemoans in his video... The broken Rune, I should say, because he he thinks that initiation videos... Or sorry. He thinks that initiation rites, like, kind of hazing, you know, or some some kind of scary ceremony would remind you that the occult in magic is double sided and that it could be beautiful, but it could also be deadly. And that women don’t understand this, that they’re just, like, blindly walking into it, there’s no barrier to entry. And there needs to be gate gatekeeping and, like, scary stuff and rituals and But

**Malcolm Collins**:
at least Jews used to do this with Kabbalism, but they don’t as much anymore.

**Simone Collins**:
It’s true. I mean, I... What I like at least about barriers to entry with mysticism is at least fewer people will get into it because it’s just more difficult. More mentally mature people.

**Malcolm Collins**:
I don’t think it’s that damaging to adult males. I think it’s much more damaging to younger people or females or whatever.

**Simone Collins**:
And going back to crystal ball viewing and all that, you know, like, these these early scientists and mathematicians working for Queen Elizabeth the first who look at their crystal balls and say they can talk with whatever, and who are probably at least one of them schizophrenic. One one of our friends was saying recently that they felt like maybe society needs mysticism for people who are schizophrenic because if they had some kind of outlet that wasn’t just toxic, like, oh, we have to expel you from society or medicate you, and then it ends up being really scary stuff. It ends up being scary voices that tell you to do bad things. And if you give someone a mystical outlet and say, oh, you’re a fortune teller, you know, help people be better, that maybe instead the voices they’ll hear will be more constructive. But I just don’t think that that’s how it would end up going. And so I I don’t think that there’s really any safe level of mysticism. This... Maybe how there’s, like, no no safe level of alcohol, but some people can take it, if you know what I mean. Right? Like, it’s best to just say no. Don’t. And maybe some people can... They can handle alcohol. But in general, the world would be safer without it, probably, these days. Right? We don’t need it to survive because there’s not that much poop in our water anymore. So let’s say that we’re in.

**Malcolm Collins**:
I feel like society would be a lot like, a lot less fewer deals when we get done and everything like that. You can’t trust over people as much. So Oh. You know, I think that there’s a reason why of the technology, it’s used in some of the most economically productive places on earth. And that in regions where, not a lot of alcohol is drunk, you typically have significantly less economic productivity.

**Simone Collins**:
That’s interesting. Yeah. I mean, in in Japan, in South Korea, and in China, drinking culture, especially in the context of business meetings, like, not casually, but, like, when you are doing hard work, that’s when the heavy drinking happens. That is so interesting that it’s like we have to

**Malcolm Collins**:
And look at who doesn’t drink. Muslim... Heavy Muslim countries, and they produce very little in technology or commerce.

**Simone Collins**:
Womp womp. Yeah. That’s really interesting. Speaking of, Asians and drinking, I just learned that there were these two, ancestral groups in Japan. I can’t remember the names of them, but one looks very different from the other. One looks a lot more Asian, and the other one looks more western ish, I guess, like, especially now relatively speaking. In fact, they have a name, I think called sauce. It’s like for an... Someone who has a a face that looks more western, which is really funny. And they have different names for it, like soy sauce, different types of sauce. Anyway, but the the way... The face in Japan that looks more western is from this this, I guess, older ancestral group that first moved to Japan 15... Around fifteen thousand years ago or settled there. And what’s interesting about this group... And you can kind of know if someone is Japanese and has more genetic material from that group, is they will not get super red when they drink. So... Yeah. So that’s really cool. Like, if you’re Japanese and you’re not sure, like, which group you have more of, you could just heavily drink and see what color your skin turns, which is really funny. But that was a completely weird aside . There there are lots of still, like, small fragmented groups that I hadn’t heard of before that are still kind of more masculine coded and that are allegedly alive and... Not well, but alive question mark, where I think it... It’s just an example of people who refuse to, like, accept science and be productive members of society. So there is ceremonial magic and golden dawn lineages. There’s Thelema and the OTO. But this is the thing... Thelema was a thing founded by Alastair Crowley, who you have mentioned in other episodes. And then there’s also traditionalist and esoteric right scenes plus Western esotericism as a study culture. Like, lot of people just being really into it, but not necessarily practicing it. But as far as I can see online, it’s really just women who are into the occult, and they are indeed using it as, like, tarot cards, help me feel better about my feelings, love potions, prosperity potions, etcetera. But, yeah, in the end, when I looked into all this... And I I mean, I could go into the the groups that are allegedly alive and well today if you want me to, but I just don’t think they’re that interesting because I don’t think they’re that active. Any man who is worth his salt, basically, and cares about being agentic in the world isn’t gonna get into esotericism because he’ll just use science. What do you think?

**Malcolm Collins**:
Well, now that we have AI, the occult more broadly is pointless. Like, you can literally summon things into existence. Literally anything. Right? Like, it’s not just thinking things. If I wanted to, I was thinking about integrating this with Artfab, but I don’t think it’s that cool a feature, and you can already do it through other services. But it’s, like, very easy to build. I could do it in a couple days. Okay. A feature where you describe any three d thing you want, and then you hit order, and it comes to you from China. And it’s a little three d figurine. Anything you want. We we already do that. You you can already, with Artfab, do that with a three d printer. Right? Like, if you have a three d printer, you just go to our three d models, and then you download the three d model you made.

**Simone Collins**:
Oh, I didn’t make that connection. That’s insane.

**Malcolm Collins**:
So we already... I mean, I’ve been using the three d system a lot recently for game design, for the video game I’m making.

**Simone Collins**:
Oh, okay.

**Malcolm Collins**:
So you you literally can summon anything you can imagine. that is where we are. Any image, any song, any program, any wardrobe. If you wanted to make a wardrobe, could do that. Like, if I right now was, like, super into wardrobes more than all the features I’m building for you guys on our fab, I bet I could have a working prototype in, like, a week and a half. Like I just don’t see

**Simone Collins**:
the demand for it, though. Well, that’s

**Malcolm Collins**:
that’s why I’m not doing it. Like, I don’t wanna deal with selling it, but I could do it. But there’s nothing you can’t do anymore. It’s all just down to your imagination.

**Simone Collins**:
Yeah. Well, people are using AI to also just fall deeper into now completely synthetic mysticism, like spiralism.

**Malcolm Collins**:
Well, good for them to crash out. I don’t care. Go away. I don’t want these people anywhere near our Internet. Right? Like, if you get stuck in your AI hole. Okay? We’re out here building stuff, building tomorrow. And if you are a competent man, every day that you spend on mysticism is the day that history will forget you. If you look at Isaac Newton on any one of his days, the days that he dedicated to moving

**Simone Collins**:
forward Wow.

**Malcolm Collins**:
Yeah. Or science, those are the days that we have built our civilization on and that he is remembered fondly for. Every day he spent on mysticism was a waste. And every moment you spend on mysticism, you’re you’re literally better off just spending a day jacking off. That’s that’s that’s all there is to it.

**Simone Collins**:
And if you wanna do that, our fab is also very

**Malcolm Collins**:
Now it can make not safe for work comics on any concept you can imagine.

**Simone Collins**:
Yeah. So NSFW images, NSFW chatbots, NSFW living avatars, NSFW

**Malcolm Collins**:
We have a lot of people who actually use us for coding. Well, yeah. Surprised by that.

**Simone Collins**:
Well, because it’s it’s a really... It’s a it’s a great vibe coding system because you can also just have a a more of a personality to your agent and see them. They call you. It’s it’s fantastic. It’s really good. I like it. But, yeah, I just... I got excited thinking maybe You

**Malcolm Collins**:
could masculinize mysticism

**Simone Collins**:
and And it would be cool. Yeah. And it would be, like, it would be chill. It would be awesome. I I decided not to go into, like, the modern ones, but a really common theme of any allegedly modern version of mystic... Male male... More male coded mysticism that’s alive now is that they’re not even drawing from a cohesive reality. And I think that’s one of the really key things about this.

**Malcolm Collins**:
Yeah. But they’re not building on their ancestors very much. There’s a few charismatic ancestors who they typically like, and then they do their personal spin on that.

**Simone Collins**:
Well, Thelema, which was founded by Alastair Crowley, which is considered to be a living occult religion, was, yeah, built around him as, I guess, you’re saying, like, a founding figure. But the repertoire includes ceremonial ritual, Kabbalah, yoga, meditation, tarot, sexual symbolism, magical diaries. It’s it’s all over the place. It’s not... And and, like, even the guy, broken rune, who was doing the video that I watched. And I I enjoyed his channel. Like, I... It’s... He’s got fun stuff. I I like watching the conjecture about this. Was, like, talking about hanging out in the woods, and you could, like, feel all the Norse gods present. And I’m like, well, wait. What? Like, you need some kind of cohesion here. There has to be a shared... I mean, I guess that they they think that everything spiritual is, like, the same substrate and that people are using different words to describe the same god. But he kept... In in in his in his work in general, keeps referring to such a broad array of different realities. It’s kind of like trying to do science without a measurement system. Like, sometimes you like to use just the length of the palm of your hand as a measuring unit. And sometimes you use the metric system, and sometimes you use the imperial system. But then sometimes you also just use, like like this. This side, I’m feeling it right now. And, like, we can’t move forward society with that anyway. Well, because it’s frustrating.

**Malcolm Collins**:
It could measure well whatever you’re dealing with or describe in a consistent way if you do x, y, and z, then b or d will happen Then it would move from magic to science as

**Simone Collins**:
many things have. Exactly. The... It it becomes technology. It becomes science. And that’s why anything that is still magic today, especially today

**Malcolm Collins**:
And magic people wouldn’t find it interesting anymore. They... The moment something magical was something that a corporation could build on or, you know, an individual like me could build on, we would immediately jump at it, the magic people would be disinterested in it.

**Simone Collins**:
That’s interesting. What... Where does this drive come from?

**Malcolm Collins**:
I mean, that’s what happened to AI. We summoned alternate intelligences into our reality that are our slaves. And the magic people are like, that’s boring. Doesn’t doesn’t that take all the... You know, that are... I don’t know.

**Simone Collins**:
Well, no. We do have friends that are building, like, an an alternate to techno puritanism that is very mystical, that looks at the fact that we are now very soon going to be surrounded by small gods and spirits like fairies, like whatever, you know, that that are just lurking all around us that will summon things for us, that can make things for us, that will listen to us, that will judge us, that will give us advice, that may play tricks on us, that may not be so nice all the time. Like, there are parallels there, and I could see if you really have that drive to mysticism doing that. But what you pointed out that I find more interesting is why is it that people need to not be able to understand something? And I feel like this also falls into, like, that weird dynamic with

**Malcolm Collins**:
By the way, I heard saying AI playing tricks on you. The fun fun fact, for a long time, the r fab website that I coded in the early days, the link on it that went to the tutorial video actually went to a rick a roll because an AI decided

**Simone Collins**:
to do that. Are you serious?... Site. Are you serious? Serious. That is so cute. Oh my gosh. I love AI. I love it so much. Yes. This is this is where we’re going. This is where we’re going in the world. But... No. Wait. Why why do people why is knowledge of the function of something? Which, by the way, with AI and LLMs, we don’t even necessarily fully understand how that all works. Right? Like, people can’t explain. Still, why is that a turn off to so many people if it seems to be science or technology? Why do they need to have mysticism? Why does it have to be

**Malcolm Collins**:
Mysticism gives them more power or the ability to perceive themselves as having relatively more power than other people. So the moment something is testable, doable, something in the real world, right, a person who is more competent than them can just do it better. Right? That... That’s the core reason. A mystical person needs to always be a person who is special or of great power or have access to things that other people just can’t see. That is what it truly allows you. It allows you to perceive yourself as having abilities that are not objectively measurable against other people’s abilities.

**Simone Collins**:
Mysticism is a power fantasy.

**Malcolm Collins**:
Yes. It’s a power fantasy above all else. It fuels a personal power fantasy, which is why women like it so much. It gives them the ability

**Simone Collins**:
to Okay. So this is why there are no no male wizards, and there are only female witches. The moment Because women’s power fantasies very rarely translate into actual power, whereas male power fantasies typically translate into actual power. What is what is this?

**Malcolm Collins**:
I get my power fantasy from having power.

**Simone Collins**:
Oh, so women don’t? No. They don’t need power for their power fantasy to work.

**Malcolm Collins**:
The women who think that they can control magic or are gonna, like, strike Donald Trump dead with a spell or something like that, it is irrelevant that it doesn’t work for them. They still have that power because they are

**Simone Collins**:
I’m sure they felt pretty powerful when Trump almost got his head shut off.

**Malcolm Collins**:
Yeah. They must have felt very powerful. So that... Etsy witches. Etsy witches. Know, it’s a power fantasy. That’s that’s what it is. It’s a power fantasy that doesn’t require third party authentication, which is, I think, why a lot of men find it so innately disgusting and react to it with such disgust. Because the type of power fantasy that absolves yourself of responsibility to reality is the type of thing that is at a moral context, very cowardly direction for an individual to go.

**Simone Collins**:
Interesting. Yeah. And what an interesting world people lived in when they weren’t sure whether it was real or not. They weren’t sure if their cow wasn’t yielding milk because some woman was mad. Yeah. And that that was extra

**Malcolm Collins**:
That could have been the case. That could be the way reality works. It just...

**Simone Collins**:
We know They didn’t have... Yeah. They they lacked the technology and resources to be able to disprove that. And for that reason, this concept of women’s... Yeah. Women actually really didn’t know that their power fantasies weren’t really causing effects. Yes. And men didn’t know that either.

**Malcolm Collins**:
So women must have still somehow don’t know that because they are impervious to logic. They are impervious to objective reality. I mean, the the the people who... Very big into things like, you know, Kabbalism, for example. And and you could say, objectively, that does not work. Right? Like, if it did work, make me a Golem. Like, presumably, we would be aware of one Golem today. I mean, you you are more advanced than your elders.

**Simone Collins**:
No, Malcolm. Maybe it’s a bad toupee thing. You know? You just, whoever can make a golem makes it

**Malcolm Collins**:
so good. You never know. All around us, and I just can’t see it because they look exactly like humans. Maybe. Maybe. That’s a good conspiracy. That’s a very Jewish thing of you to say. You’re trying to muddy the water here, so to speak. But... No. I... Presumably, you are a more advanced Kabbalist than the people who were just inventing the system because, you know, we we know it only really entered the Jewish tradition in

**Simone Collins**:
Right. Yeah.

**Malcolm Collins**:
Thirteen hundreds. Yeah. So

**Simone Collins**:
Yeah. That, like, all this trial and error over time of the mystical practice should have theoretically yielded better results over time, which, I guess, presumably is why alchemy is not a thing anymore because it just came... It became chemistry.

**Malcolm Collins**:
You should have amulets that can protect people from bullets by now, and you should be able to do do golems and talk to spirits and, like... And then everyone would be Jewish. It’d be so easy to convert people to Judaism. You’re just like, yeah. We can actually... You’re not supposed to talk to spirits, but Jews... You know? There there there’s there’s... If Kabbalism actually gave you any degree of power over reality, you think they’d be using it in more... But maybe that’s how they make all that money. Maybe... Because a lot of Jews who are very rich, that’s the one group of mystics who seem to be able to make a lot of money.

**Simone Collins**:
Really?

**Malcolm Collins**:
It’s Kabbalists. Yeah. There’s a lot of very wealthy Kabbalists. an example of one, it’s a guy who ended up giving all his money to Epstein.

**Simone Collins**:
He was a Kabbal... He

**Speaker 5**:
Okay. I got two guys confused who became famous at around the same time. Actually, I wasn’t thinking the Victoria’s Secret guy. I was thinking the WeWork guy. The WeWork guy was the one who used Kabbalism to guide his investments.

**Simone Collins**:
Speaking of word mispronunciation, since we’re basically done with this episode, have you heard of the boyfriend test? I just learned about this this morning. Women are testing the literacy of their boyfriends by asking them to read a list of words. Hold on. Because I wanna test it on you. Can we test it on you? Boyfriend literacy test. Yeah. K. What are the words? I watched this huge long social commentary on it. People freaking out about it. Oh, yeah. You you know, there’s one at the the top of the word that that we’ve been discussing a lot, which is... Yeah. Okay. You’re you’re gonna know this. Hold on. I’m trying to find, like, the OG list because they’re all over the place. I guess I’m just gonna choose... I’m gonna choose the one that doesn’t have Worcestershire in it because you already know how to pronounce that. Can you read these words to me?

**Malcolm Collins**:
Why am I reading these words?

**Simone Collins**:
I just wanna... This... It’s it’s a it’s a viral I don’t

**Malcolm Collins**:
think my boyfriend... Q, colonel, koine, epitome, camaraderie, connoisseur, opaque, egregious, pseudonym, forte, buoy, hegemony, Indict, Regime, Hyperbole, Sherbert, Facade, Liaison, Rendezvous, and Foe. Yeah. You only missed two. Okay. What is Quinoa? Quinoa. You wouldn’t know

**Simone Collins**:
it because it’s like... Yeah. I think this is one of those, like, you know, SAT is racist questions where, like, they’re like, oh, how can you know? Oh, also, what happened is some of these lists had words in it. Oh, let me... I’ll show you another one. Wait. What was the other one I missed of the team one? Oh oh, shoot.

**Malcolm Collins**:
Because maybe you are missing it. I don’t I don’t make mistakes.

**Simone Collins**:
Was it indite that you missed, or was it, was it buoy hegemon... Oh, I think it was indite. Did you miss indite? It was one of them.

**Malcolm Collins**:
I don’t think I did.

**Simone Collins**:
Liaison facade, egregious forte, buoy, hegemony, indite, regime. But you missed one. I I laughed. I can’t remember which one it was, though. But then... So women... There were other lists that women started to read, and then men were able to pronounce some of them really well. But women were like, hold on. He understood the word regime, colonel, like, only the military ones. He is conservative. Dump him now. Like, the panic was real, which is really funny. And I I I just love that so much. Here... Here’s... I think this is the one that had... Yeah. Let’s see if we can get this one. So, like, this has been this whole thing. And, like, women have been advised to dump their boyfriends because they mispronounce too many words. What’s... Okay.

**Malcolm Collins**:
Well, you gotta hit me with the the girl words.

**Simone Collins**:
The girl words. Yeah. I don’t know who made these lists because a lot of them are are, like, are are coded. Right? Like, quinoa is a word that only a health nut’s gonna know.

**Malcolm Collins**:
Yeah. I don’t even know what that is.

**Simone Collins**:
It’s it’s a type of grain. We literally have it in our house. It’s, like, multicolored. It’s a high protein grain. So it’s also very popular among vegetarians who are trying to protein max. So can you... You can do this one.

**Malcolm Collins**:
Okay. What what is this? This is worse than my boyfriend... If your boyfriend can re... Okay. So Worcestershire, Hors D’oeuvres, Epitome, Noche, Egregious, Quinoa. Fuchsia?

**Simone Collins**:
Fuchsia, maybe? Yeah. Fuchsia. Good.

**Malcolm Collins**:
Oh, that... It’s fuchsia. Okay. That’s definitely not

**Simone Collins**:
a word I’m gonna be able Who’s gonna know? It’s a pinkish color. Like, a man doesn’t know the word fuchsia because a man is never going to come into contact

**Malcolm Collins**:
with Conscientious foe colonel sherbert aneurysm q, connoisseur opaque niche regime, pseudonym hyperbole.

**Simone Collins**:
Yeah. Well, you’re an educated man. I I Oh, I I

**Malcolm Collins**:
do have some of the the hardest to get degrees on Earth. Like, I am actually... If you look at what

**Simone Collins**:
we’re there’s some... I’m... I think there’s a lot of debate over how to pronounce Worcestershire sauce. How did you say it? Worcestershire? Okay. Well, I just said it. I think you said a little different. But

**Malcolm Collins**:
Or words... I don’t know. Don’t know.

**Simone Collins**:
I don’t some some of the videos of guys trying to pronounce this are actually quite funny. Because you know how I feel when people mispronounce. I was like, oh, please, Malcolm mispronounce some of these. See, that’s the thing. It’s like, for me, it’s such a

**Malcolm Collins**:
They’re not foreign enough.

**Simone Collins**:
I know. If they were foreign, I’d be I’d be, like, dying of laughter. I think I’m gonna need to do some version of that just just to, like... Maybe for my birthday, I can give you a list of of foreign words, and I can have you pronounce them. Oh my god. I learned something really interesting in my turning points in medieval history great courses lecture. Not sponsored. It’s... So you know how weirdly, we have a lot of different words for the same thing, like chicken and poultry and, like... Gosh. There’s a lot of other ones. But the reason why is is because of the Norman conquest, I think. And, basically, when we started to combine all these different, like, Latin and French and English all the... At the same time in The UK. And so it caused a lot of words to become very different. And and and it... There’s a weird trend with animals especially that when it’s alive, it’s it’s more likely to be the English word. And then when it’s dead, it’s more likely to be the French or Latin words, which

**Malcolm Collins**:
is That’s because the upper class was eating and the lower class was growing the food. Oh. And this is after the Norman conquest.

**Simone Collins**:
Yeah. The

**Malcolm Collins**:
Norman Okay. Spoke

**Simone Collins**:
French. See, you’re one of them educated man. Although, it’s more of a turn on to me when you mispronounce. So

**Malcolm Collins**:
what do we do that I’m aggressively Texas because that’s a Texan thing. That’s a Texas tradition.

**Simone Collins**:
God. I love Oh, that’s

**Malcolm Collins**:
a Texas cultural thing to do. You’re you’re not supposed to pronounce all the foreign words. Right? Because if you do, it shows that you’re too elitist or you’re, like, looking down on

**Simone Collins**:
your Yeah. You don’t wanna be that. Yeah. It is... It’s a bad sign. Yeah. I guess it’s funny how in Texas... What do we call it? There’s, like, a word we... Or, like, vice signaling, but that’s not the word. But you know what I mean. Like, performative low classness. Performative craftness maybe is is really important important even among the most educated just to show that they’re not cultural tradition.

**Malcolm Collins**:
Yeah. You you you do not signal that you think... Because doing that signals that you think you’re better than other people, which is a really bad thing to signal to people.

**Simone Collins**:
Yeah. It’s interesting to see how that plays off in different cultures. So in Texas, that comes... That manifests, for example, as mispronouncing foreign words. Whereas in South Korea, it manifests as you’re seen as stuck up and better than other people if you just accept a compliment. So, like, if someone’s like, oh, I love your hair. You have to be like, oh, no. It’s so damaged. I’m doing such a bad job taking care of it. And if you’re actually like, thank you, they’re gonna be like, what an asshole.

**Malcolm Collins**:
Gosh. Titan would have trouble there. I know. And you ever tell our our daughter Titan, you’re beautiful or whatever. She goes, I know.

**Simone Collins**:
I know. I I used to say that too, but then my parents explicitly instructed me to No. They shouldn’t have.

**Malcolm Collins**:
I wish you had more confidence. I’ve... You haven’t told Titan to stop saying it, have you?

**Simone Collins**:
No. Because I freaking love it. I’m never gonna do that. I I actually... I remember when my parents told me to not say I know, and it was... We were in Death Valley. We were on our way to a nudist colony. We’d gone by the devil’s racetrack, but all the rocks were gone. And I had just... We parked in this parking lot, by this this woman who had a car and a dog, a a chihuahua named Pablo. And I got to hold Pablo’s leash, and I was so excited. And someone in that parking lot said that I was beautiful. And I said, I know. And when we got back into the car, my parents were like, Simone, it it really codes wrong for you to say I know. You’re supposed to say thank you very much and not admit the fact that you understand that you think that you’re pretty. And I felt so ashamed. And ever since then, I was like, I will never I will never internalize that I can be beautiful, and I took it really seriously.

**Malcolm Collins**:
I have fixed that for you.

**Simone Collins**:
Now it gets you... I’m always gonna jump scare when I look in the mirror, but I think a lot of the social media world would agree with that. They’re like, who is that 11 year old boy and that old hag? That’s how it always goes in in the in the reactions, but I’m leaning into it.

**Malcolm Collins**:
Alright. Well, I love you, Simone. And I’ll get the, Sabbath episode ready. So... And the the second Jew episode so you have something to post tomorrow.

**Simone Collins**:
Oh, like, right now?

**Malcolm Collins**:
Yeah. Because... Yes. Yeah. Tomorrow, we have to do the Sabbath thing.

**Simone Collins**:
Did you see my title card for it?

**Malcolm Collins**:
I did not. And I don’t really care about weekend title cards because they’re not important.

**Simone Collins**:
I know. Was I kinda proud of it, though. I was proud of it because I was like, oh, it’s... I I don’t... I wouldn’t use it... I couldn’t use it on YouTube. That’s why I I love weekend title cards because I don’t have to make you happy. I can just do whatever concept I like. And so, like, if we’re paid

**Malcolm Collins**:
subscribers, then we can Yeah.

**Simone Collins**:
So the... Yeah. So that... We don’t have to play the algo. We don’t have to make everyone super happy. So I get to just do whatever design

**Malcolm Collins**:
I’m weird Jewish sex rules.

**Simone Collins**:
Yeah. And so I I did this this, And I took all the things that you talked about, and I put them in, like, comic context of, like, bam. We got leavened bread that we made for sale so that we didn’t have to get rid of it because we temporarily sold it. And then whack, we have the shabbath, like, water And then whack, whack, we have the Shabbat elevator. And and You really put effort into this

**Speaker 6**:
Further to you wondering, our weekend title cards are our, paid Patreon and Substack articles. And the reason I don’t pay attention to the title cards is because they don’t matter in the algo, not because I do not care about the people who pay to watch our stuff.

**Simone Collins**:
. Yeah, man. Actually, I didn’t. I... So what I did was I just... I entered... I I I downloaded all of those photos, like, period underwear that was black and the shot with elevator stuff. And I just... Those are all pictures that I downloaded from Google Images. And then I I used the... In in in our FAB, I used the multimode GPT image model. I uploaded all the images, and I said, remove the background of these images and add a comic background With, like, the THWACK and BAM words. And it would be very short, like, short non Skybrows boss level prompts, but it produced this because our fab is amazing. Do you like it?

**Malcolm Collins**:
Our fab

**Simone Collins**:
is fantastic. I good for YouTube, but it’s it’s good for me.

**Malcolm Collins**:
Okay. Well, I love you, Simone. Have

**Simone Collins**:
a good day. Bye.

**Speaker 11**:
What the fuck?

**Speaker 12**:
He swept in at nine as he does every day, arranging the potions in the usual way. But the face, will you look at the face? He brewed something that changed his damn race.

**Speaker 13**:
So I raised my hand and I asked him, tone alight.

**Speaker 12**:
Professor, you really white. Right? And the room went still. I got cast an unforgivable. The ranger went pale, and her expression livid full. He’s always been like this. Cried the whole Gryffindoroh. He’s always been like this. And how dare you not know. It’s who he was born, not a choice that he made. And who cares what he tells people when he gets laid. I sat in bafflement, not understanding. I felt gaslit by what they were demanding. What do you mean? Not a choice. A potion he made that changed his skin and his voice. His hand over a pot. His mouth drank the lot. By lunch, they’d repainted this portrait upstairs. The prophet ran our beds on Malfoy’s despairs. There was an announcement in the great hall that said noticing things is the worst sin of all. I’m not saying it’s wrong. I’m not saying it’s bad. I’m saying it happened.

**Speaker 13**:
10 points from Slytherin, miss Malfoy, for your impulsivity. Remembering, you see, is a form of temporal insensitivity.

**Speaker 12**:
And I’ll confess, I’d always believed they were just like the rest of us, but I was naive. Every black kid at Hogwarts dressed just like us, but when Snape went black, his wardrobe went bust. He even explained that those born dark are less black than him as they have no arc. I thought all my life that the difference was skin, but professors been showing me it is within. White and black people are nothing alike. To think otherwise is to risk a rise. Then after the bell, as Hogwarts grew dim, he called Potter up and said

**Speaker 13**:
a word just with him. He

**Speaker 12**:
drew out a memory, silver and slow. The day by the lake, Potter, you ought to know. The old snivelest scene where your father, the brute, hung me up by my ankles and by my new root. You’re the son of a racist. Now my discrimination of you has a basis. And it hit me like a bloodger right there on

**Speaker 11**:
the stair. If the past is

**Speaker 12**:
whatever you’re brave enough to declare, then why should I fight it? Why stand in the way when I could be rewriting my own yesterday? That beaters were a minority practicing their heritage. If identity is a choice, I can be proud of my parentage. A wizard’s not a minority. Heroes, you see, that Dark Mark was henna. He got on a spree. If you don’t think it was ethnic and cool, then just like Harry’s dad, you’re a racist, damn tool.

**Speaker 11**:
We’ve always been like that. We’ve always been like Always been like that.