An Exploration of the Mormon Afterlife: Fewer Planets, More Ghosts — episode transcript
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An Exploration of the Mormon Afterlife: Fewer Planets, More Ghosts — episode transcript
Malcolm Collins: Just taking a topic that I personally want to know more about, f- do more on episodes, and deciding to learn everything I can about it. And then go over it with you guys because if I wanna learn more about it, you guys are probably interesting in it as well. That’s my guess. And so one of the ones recently, because it came from the episode on Tate, where I had noticed, and there’s going to be a long, nice tracked episode on this, and I’m very excited to film- I can’t wait
on the afterlife in Islam- Oh ... which is genuinely way more fucked up than you have any idea. Like, I had no idea. Virtually, for example all of the mainstream Muslim faiths believe that if I convert to Islam and I die, I get a second wife in addition to Simone.
Simone Collins: Minimum.
Malcolm Collins: Minimum.
Simone Collins: Minimum.
Malcolm Collins: Minimum.
No, i- i- it could be actually I think it’s a little dif- I think I actually get two wives in addition to you, minimum. Oh,
Simone Collins: okay. Well, you gotta figure that out by the time, and this stuff matters to some guys. But
Malcolm Collins: at the very least, everybody has at least two wives in heaven. You know, that’s a f- of, of course.
Of course. Thank
Simone Collins: goodness, yeah.
Malcolm Collins: And I- Well,
Simone Collins: wives don’t get anything extra.
Malcolm Collins: Oh, no, no, no, no. No.
Simone Collins: They get to be happy with it. That’s, that’s literally what they get,
Malcolm Collins: right? They get brainwashed into being okay with it. Mm-hmm. That’s, like, literally their... W- like, when we go into it, you guys are gonna be like, “Wow.”
And, and everybody gets beautiful child slaves.
Simone Collins: Oh. Right
Malcolm Collins: Well, menservants who you don’t pay, but they, whatever you wanna call them. Oh,
Simone Collins: sure.
Malcolm Collins: And it, it talks a lot about how beautiful these young boys are.
Simone Collins: Oh.
Malcolm Collins: Hmm ... and how young they are. And- Ah ... it is really, th- th- they’re, they swear. It’s nothing like that.
It’s n- and it’s like- Okay. It’s
Simone Collins: weird. Okay. But
Malcolm Collins: yeah, get, bu- ... buckle up for that one, guys. Oh. But this one I wanted to contrast ‘cause I had Mormonism, which in my sort of lay understanding of Mormonism had one of the better heaven outcomes. Yeah. I really personally don’t like the generic Christian interpretation of the afterlife.
Simone Collins: Yeah, both biblically but also, like, well, I mean, biblically they don’t really talk about it, but in terms of the, the stereotype, especially what’s presented in Dante’s Divine Comedy just sounds, let’s, very tedious. It sounds very tedious. Not
Malcolm Collins: my thing. And it’s not what’s in the Bible, by the way, at all.
No.
Simone Collins: No, it’s his, his fantasy book. The, the, the
Malcolm Collins: standard Christian interpretation that you’re just, like, chilling with God is not- Mm-mm ... i- in fact we’ll have a tract on this soon. It specifically said that you have jobs in the afterlife. Like, you, you have a work, you have responsibility, and you have people you’re supposed to reign over.
Or some form of entity you’re supposed to reign over.
Simone Collins: Okay.
Malcolm Collins: Which doesn’t make sense if you’re just all sort of co-equal drifting in some-
Simone Collins: Not really ...
Malcolm Collins: pleasant void by God. Well,
Simone Collins: yeah, in, in Dante’s Divine Comedy, they were busy, but it w- they’re very busy worshiping God, and there were, like, inner circles within inner circles.
Like, you know, the better you were, the closer you were to God. So there was a hierarchy. Yeah. It’s not like he was just chilling out with God in his version just- Yeah, no, the
Malcolm Collins: Bible is very clear there’s a hierarchy. That’s, that’s not vague at all. Heaven is not- Heaven is
Simone Collins: not... equality- ... social ... doesn’t even exist in heaven, and yet, like, so many people think it’s this higher value that somehow...
When in human history did equality somehow begin to manner- matter? Because it, it was well understood- Really
Malcolm Collins: recently ...
Simone Collins: right? Like, at least up until, like, the 1900s, early 1900s, people well understood that there was no such thing as equality or fairness. Yeah. So what, what happened?
Malcolm Collins: But we’re, before we get to that- Yes
let’s get to the secondary what do Mu- because they don’t believe at all what I thought they believed.
Simone Collins: Right, right. So layperson’s understanding of Mormon heaven is you get your own planet, typically you get to be reunited with your family, which is super wholesome and I could totally see the appeal in that for some- Yeah
in- including myself. Like, my gosh.
Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I really like that. To think like- I, I do not like the traditional Christian interpretation that you have no family in heaven and-
Simone Collins: Yeah ... you know- It’s like, “Oh, don’t worry, you won’t care.” It’s like, wait, no, I do worry because I just lost someone I
Malcolm Collins: really love. I don’t want to not care,
Simone Collins: yeah.
Malcolm Collins: Yeah. We can ta- which one line can be interpreted as meaning that, but we’ll go over in our tract in this episode, I do not think the plurality of lines would be taken to mean that.
Simone Collins: Hm.
Malcolm Collins: But-
Simone Collins: Yeah. So, so that’s LDS heaven as people understand it. You get your own planet, get with your family. What, what’s really going on?
Malcolm Collins: Okay. So that stuff didn’t even come up in my first Grok answer about this. Wait, what? I had to press it on that specific point, and the main church right now teaches you don’t get your own planet. It says, it’s the- So
Simone Collins: it’s just a meme that outsiders are taking and running with?
Malcolm Collins: No, it’s the logical conclusion from what former head church guys have said, head prophets have said.
Hm. But the modern church is trying to, like, normiefy the church so hard that they’re getting rid of it. But the weirder thing- Hm ... that I didn’t know about is, do you know what Mormon thinks happens the moment you die? Like, what happens in between when you die and when you get your planet? Do you know?
Simone Collins: You float in Lego space?
Malcolm Collins: That’s outer darkness. And no, that doesn’t happen.
Simone Collins: Right. Like, the most I know about Mormon afterlife potentials is from like a Sky Browse music video on bricks and mini figs. Oh, my God. No, just tell me. I don’t know. So this
Malcolm Collins: is actually laid out really clearly. This is agreed upon by the church.
You continue living on Earth as a ghost. Oh.
Simone Collins: Wait. No. No, no, no.
Malcolm Collins: You can still feel sadness. You can still feel happiness. You feel emotions, the world around you. So
Simone Collins: you’re just watching your family grieve, and then-
Malcolm Collins: For thousands- ...
Simone Collins: move
Malcolm Collins: on ... of years. N- no, not just that. So what, what are the main things that Mormon ghosts do?
Simone Collins: I don’t know
Malcolm Collins: Try to convert other ghosts.
Simone Collins: Oh, of course. Oh, wait.
Okay. Yes, of course they do. So- Hold on, though. So there’s this, like, there was this, this man in Japan who basically just resoundingly disproved ghosts, ‘cause he’s like, “Look, if ghosts were real, there would be so many freaking ghosts, there wouldn’t be any room for anyone, e- even the ghosts.”
Malcolm Collins: Yeah, so Mormons don’t think ghosts work like that.
Ghosts for them are not like poltergeists or interacting with the physical world through like- Well, they’re
Simone Collins: interacting with each other. Where do you think these people are gonna convert? They’re
Malcolm Collins: interacting with each other, and they can interact with the physical world, but in one specific way.
Simone Collins: Okay.
Malcolm Collins: They can, So ghosts are divided into two categories, okay? Mm-hmm. You’ve got the good ghosts, who lived like a good Mormon life, and then you’ve got ghosts- The Mormon
Simone Collins: ghosts ...
Malcolm Collins: who are, yes, who are in spirit jail. Now-
Simone Collins: Oh ...
Malcolm Collins: spirit jail is not like a physical jail. They don’t get teleported to some, like-
Simone Collins: What? So it’s like purgatory in
Malcolm Collins: some edition
if you’re thinking like the underground. No, no, no, no. It’s just like being one of the Mormon ghosts, except you’re sad about it.
Simone Collins: Oh.
Malcolm Collins: So you’re like- Ah ... deeply distressed about being a ghost.
Simone Collins: Well, look, I mean, it, it’s like that that episode of Surf P- South Park where, like, everyone died or something, and then they get to heaven, and it’s like, “No, it’s, it’s the Mormons.
They, they were the right ones.” So you die, and you’re like, “Ah, I thought I had it right.” Well, you would be bummed too, you know, if it turned out that it was the Mormons, and you’re like, “Well, I-”
Malcolm Collins: No, it’s much more like the South Park episode where everyone acts like they can’t hear Cartman, and he thinks that he’s dead, and he’s just walking around the town.
Simone Collins: Gosh.
Malcolm Collins: So the, but- Oh, Cartman ... what the, what the good ghosts do, or the ghosts who want salvation is they’ll try to, like, guide you to make sure that you choose their name- Okay ... when you’re doing one of your you know how they, like, seal people to get them into heaven through the rituals, like dead people?
Simone Collins: Yes. The baptisms
Malcolm Collins: Like kids go... The baptism. They think that like ghosts will come and, and, and move them to do that. Aw. That that’s like one of the things, Aw ... that they, or, or that ghosts can like influence your decisions or guide your decisions-
Simone Collins: Including you ... and stuff. Aw. Yeah, ‘cause they’ve been...
Yeah, like this ghost was talking with Anne Frank and was like-
Malcolm Collins: But yet the number of ghosts there must be in any given house at any given time, I can see why Mormons are so scared to masturbate. There are ghosts-
Simone Collins: No kidding, ‘cause- Everywhere ... they’re watching. Like, there’s like-
Malcolm Collins: Ev- everywhere you do anything, there’s like-
Simone Collins: 12 people in the room ...
Malcolm Collins: 12 dudes watching you. Yeah.
Simone Collins: Yeah, dude. It’s a, it’s a turn off. It’s a turn off.
Malcolm Collins: Every time you have sex, every time you take a dump, there’s like- God, yeah ... 12 ghosts.
Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah. It’s not even God is watching. I mean, God is watching, but also like a bunch of
Malcolm Collins: actual- Yeah, it’s like this is-
people are watching ... actually gets me to obey way more than God is watching.
Simone Collins: Yeah.
Malcolm Collins: Just like random judgmental dudes. Yeah,
Simone Collins: b- both both virtuous and just not, not virtuous people are, are watching you.
Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I mean they d- they don’t they, a lot of people watching is going on with these ghosts, right?
Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah.
Malcolm Collins: But I
Simone Collins: was surprised- Well, look, the pervs then. Like, this is a, a, a dead pervert’s paradise if you think about it. Like, I think there’s a lot of people who would be happier as ghosts than as people. All the needs-
Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I can see that ...
Simone Collins: all the- Very
Malcolm Collins: scary- Yeah ... being a girl in Mormon world.
Simone Collins: Ah, yep.
Malcolm Collins: But I’ll go into a description of like what it said first. A- and then I went into like more context ‘cause I wanted to learn more because I found this really fascinating.
Simone Collins: Okay.
Malcolm Collins: And yeah. So, in the teachings of, of Mormons, the afterlife is part of a broader plan of salvation, also called the plan of happiness or redemption.
It is not a simple binary of heaven versus hell. Nearly all people receive a kingdom of glory after resurrection and judgment. Even the lowest is described as surpassing earthly understanding. The system emphasizes God’s justice and mercy through Christ’s atonement, individual agency, and ongoing opportunity, including after death.
Oh, one thing I was gonna note, which is interesting about Mormonism, is if you get converted as a ghost after you die, you can still like get married and get all of the benefits that a Mormon who lived their entire life as a Mormon would have on Judgment
Simone Collins: Day. W- you can... Okay, hold on. So- You can’t get temple sealed as a ghost,
Malcolm Collins: Von.
No, you can.
Simone Collins: You can’t. How? Who’s gonna do it
Malcolm Collins: for you? I don’t understand exactly how it works, but you can.
Simone Collins: Okay.
Malcolm Collins: Oh, wait. I do understand how it works. Okay, so I’ll explain. Very interesting. So the temple sealings that happen to ghosts are typically done by living Mormons. So when Mormons do that whole baptism thing, another thing that they do is they will, for all of their ancestors who are married, perform sealings for them.
Oh,
Simone Collins: okay. That’s really...
Malcolm Collins: And you know, and you know another fun one- Oh. Yeah, that is, it is sweet. Another fun one- That’s really sweet ... is that the sealings, it is common when you’re doing this if a woman had multiple wife- husbands to seal her to every one of her husbands. So women can be sealed to multiple men-
I
Simone Collins: was gonna ask you about that
Malcolm Collins: but only if they’re
Simone Collins: dead. Yeah, how does that work out? Right. But then then who do they end up with?
Malcolm Collins: They, th- the i- understanding- Do they clone? ... as far as I understand is they end up rejecting all of the sealings that are made for them except for the one they want
Simone Collins: Ouch. Man, like that one husband waiting.
Malcolm Collins: Yeah, no, the, the, no, worse than that is because as a woman you have to be officially unsealed from your first husband to be sealed to a second husband-
Simone Collins: Mm ...
Malcolm Collins: if you are a Mormon woman and you are married to a virtuous Mormon man and he dies, and you then go petition the whor- church to break your sealing so you can get married again, which does happen all
Simone Collins: the time- And he’s just watching you do it.
He’s just watching you- Yeah, he’s like- ... unseal ... “
Malcolm Collins: What the fuck?” Like- Yeah.
Simone Collins: Oh, man ... “What am I gonna
Malcolm Collins: do now? Now I have to find some ghost to date?”
Simone Collins: I, I guess. Well, but, but then who’s gonna seal him? Because it’s not like anyone’s gonna know.
Malcolm Collins: Yeah.
Simone Collins: And also, he’s been baptized already, so... That’s tough. I
Malcolm Collins: love that techno-puritanism has, like, none of these logical contradictions, like
Simone Collins: you’re- By the way, if you’re...
Sorry, if you’re a member of the LDS church and you need to baptize some dead married people-
Malcolm Collins: What? ...
Simone Collins: just well, who’s gonna baptize- G- g- ... and seal us, Malcolm?
Malcolm Collins: Well, the well, of course somebody will, but it doesn’t matter really- ... because you immediately, like, when you die, if you and I die, right? Yeah. It would be immediately clear that Mormonism was correct, because all of a sudden I’m a ghost, right?
Like, I’m aware of the Mormon afterlife. Oh,
Simone Collins: and then so we would just go get converted.
Malcolm Collins: We would just go immediately- And get- ... convert to Mormonism, and because, like, an angel-
Simone Collins: Look, but, you know, whoever does temple seal us anyway-
Malcolm Collins: No, but hold on. What you’re forgetting is ghosts can influence living people if Mormonism is correct.
Oh. So we just go whisper to some Mormon guy to, to, you know, inspire him to- To go baptize and to seal us ... to baptize or seal us. We get that handled v- very easily, Simone. Yeah,
Simone Collins: well, what if it’s watching this video that inspires him, because the ghosts of us inspired him to watch this video? I’m just put- I’m just making it easier for ghost Simone and Malcolm.
Yeah.
Malcolm Collins: I mean, I’m gonna be honest. Of,
Simone Collins: of the religions- Do you not wanna get sealed? Is this what’s going on? Are we having cold feet?
Malcolm Collins: Of the religions that might be true, Simone, like, having studied m- tons of religions- ... while I like- I know, Malcolm. I know ... a lot of Mormon stuff- I know.
Simone Collins: I know ...
Malcolm Collins: it is very close to the bottom.
I... Oh. For people who are wondering why, even if I like the theology- ... it is very, very obvious if you look at it without a ton of bias that Joseph Smith was a professional con man. I
Simone Collins: know. I know, I know. And- But look I’ve always loved the LDS church. I’ve always loved every Mormon I’ve ever met.
Like- Well, no, it’s a
Malcolm Collins: good system they set up, in the same way- Yeah ... where I’d be like, “Muhammad was a terrible person and Joseph Smith- Yeah, trash man ... was a terrible person.” Yep, mm-hmm. And I would struggle to, like, worship a religion founded by somebody who had sex slaves. With, with Mormonism, I think that a lot of the choices that he made when setting up the structure of the religion were very smart.
Mm. It’s just I can find smarter choices in the actual Bible. The, the afterlife- Yeah. The,
Simone Collins: the Bible’s so strong. Yeah,
Malcolm Collins: yeah. If you go with the understanding of the, that we’ll go over in a future tract, of what actually happens after death by what is written in the Bible, right? You don’t have any of these contradictions that you have within Mormonism.
You don’t have any of these random injustices that you have within Mormonism. So, like, why would I not just go with the Bible, right? Like...
Simone Collins: Hmm.
Malcolm Collins: Anyway, we’ll get back to this. But, but again, it, it, it moves... It’s a very, like, low threat religion, ‘cause you can just move somebody to seal you after you die, right?
You know?
Simone Collins: Yeah. I like that.
Malcolm Collins: Okay. So before birth- Ah ... people live it as s- as spirit children of the Heavenly Father- Mm-hmm ... in a premortal council. They accept a plan involving mortality, gaining a physical body, exercising agency, choice, experiencing opposition, and preparing to return to God’s presence.
Jesus Christ was chosen as the Savior. Lucifer, Satan, and his followers rejected the plan, sought to destroy agency, and were cast without bodies. Mm. Now, this part I’ve always found interesting about the Mormon tradition, because, like, Satan’s punishment feels, like, overly severe, given that his argument wasn’t an, a necessarily immoral argument.
So you’re familiar with the conflict that Jesus and Satan had within Mormonism, right?
Simone Collins: No, actually.
Malcolm Collins: Oh Satan didn’t want people to have agency so that no one would have to go to hell. Aw ... he, he wanted to create a plan- E-
Simone Collins: even Satan is wholesome in the LDS church. Yeah, right.
Malcolm Collins: He wanted to create a plan.
Well, it makes his punishment more severe and more unjust, I think. Mm. Because he didn’t fight this from a position of a, a lack of caring about humanity. It was genuinely you could argue the more compassionate pathway. Yeah. But no, God wanted some humans to fail, so that the ones who didn’t fail, that they’re not failing bit more.
Now if, if it carried moral weight and they end up one day running other planets or something like that, then God’s whole thing makes sense, and I can see why he’s like, “No, you can’t just auto-track them all to success, you idiot.”
Simone Collins: Like me- Yeah. You need someone who’s capable of making good moral judgments.
Malcolm Collins: Yeah, yeah.
Simone Collins: It’s a job interview.
Malcolm Collins: A job interview. But anyway, so death. At death, the spirit separates from the body and enters the spirit world believed on or around Earth. This is a temporary state of continued learning, activity, and opportunity until resurrection. Paradise for the righteous, those who accepted the gospel in a place of rest, peace, and happiness, free from earthly cares.
Spirits continue to do the Lord’s lo- work. Family relationships remain important. After his crucifixion, Jesus organized a missionary team among the righteous spirits so that they could reach out to those in the darkness. The spirit prison for those who died without knowledge of the gospel in transgression or unrepentant, it functions as a place of learning where the gospel is taught.
Spirits retain agency. Those who accept the gospels and receive va- vicarious ordinances performed for them by living can progress to paradise. Those who reject it suffer a temporary state called hell suffering for their own sins comparable to, in intensity to what Christ suffered for the repentant.
This continues until they repent or acknowledge Christ. They are released typically by the end of the millennium to a lower kingdom of glory.
Simone Collins: Oh.
Malcolm Collins: Lower kingdom of glory. Missionary work continues throughout the priesthood. Yeah. The thing... And but by the way, people are like, “Why do I say he was obviously a con artist?”
For me, like, it- it, like, just one thing. He says he translated a papyrus Yes, a portion of the papyrus, it did burn in a fire, but we have since translated the papyrus actually, and it says nothing, if anything, like what he said it said. It
Simone Collins: was just- It’s a standard funerary text, yeah ...
Malcolm Collins: and the problem I have with this is you can be like, “Oh, that was at the end of the papyrus,” or, “That wasn’t the part that burned,” or, “That wasn’t...”
It’s, like, fine.
Simone Collins: Okay.
Malcolm Collins: But if Mormonism was actually true, then why did God let that happen? Mm-hmm. Not just let, but make that happen. Mm. Why did he make reality so, make it look as if Joseph Smith was a con artist, right? Like, God didn’t have to do that. That seems like he’s actively trying to lead people away from the right
Simone Collins: choice.
Well, look, he didn’t like, per the tradition, that Satan tried to make it easy for people. Maybe the way that Mormons might justify this is God doesn’t want to make Mormon, or, sorry, like becoming a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints an easy choice. He wants it to
Malcolm Collins: be something- True.
I mean, yeah, you have the deceitful God theory, which is, which is then, like, God’s intentionally trying to trick you by making a bunch of stuff not line up, and it’s like, I don’t like Gods like th- I don’t, I don’t think God is like that. That’s-
Simone Collins: Not a nice... Look. Yeah. God i- Malcolm, Malcolm, we’ve read the Old Testament.
God, he not always nice. God mean sometimes. Yeah, it’s
Malcolm Collins: not always but he’s not systemically deceitful anywhere in the Bible.
There is, there is nothing in the Bible- No ... like-
Simone Collins: Yeah ...
Malcolm Collins: that would b- be the equivalent of, like, burying bones or switching out a text so it looks like another text just so you don’t believe or, you know.
Yeah,
Simone Collins: yeah.
You’re right. He sets clear boundaries. And if he’s punishing you unfairly to test you, it’s not, like, tricking you. Yeah, he’s just p-
Malcolm Collins: So there’s three degrees of glory that you can reach. Hmm. There’s a celestial kingdom, which is glory- Okay ... in the highest. Okay. Inhabitants dwell forever in the presence of the glory of Father and Jesus Christ.
Simone Collins: Okay.
Malcolm Collins: It is for those who receives the testimony of Jesus, repent, and are baptized by the proper authority and receive the Holy Ghost, keep the commandments, and are made perfect through Christ. Those who die without knowledge of the gospel but have accepted it fully, and children who die before accountability are also heirs.
Within the celestial kingdom, there are degrees or levels. This is interesting because, like, within traditional Christianity, childrens who die super young are not. Although Consoltism has flip-flopped on this recently. Hmm. The highest exaltation requires entering and remaining faithful to the new and everlasting covenant of marriage, eternal/temple sealing, and exalted individuals become like God, receiving full access to a living, eternal family relationship, continuing to have spirit offspring, and participating in God’s work to bring about and pass on immortality and eternal life.
Now, what’s really interesting about this is this is, like, the church’s teachings now that don’t involve, like, a separate work to be running your own kingdom or anything like that. Hmm. Which to me is a significantly worse offering. I want my afterlife to be productive, right? I, I, I really hate the idea of a completely unproductive afterlife.
Like, that seems kind of like a torment to me which was what I liked about the original or I guess the church w- called cartoonish framing. Then you have the terrestrial kingdom for honorable people of the earth who were binded by the craftiness of men, received a testimony of Christ, but were not fully valiant.
You see, this is the type of thing I’m talking about here. Blinded by the craftiness of men. What? Yeah. Means blinded by the craftiness of God. God’s the one who decided what part of the scroll burned. God’s the one who decided that there was a standard funerary rite at the end of the scroll anyway. Hmm.
Right? God’s the one who decided that Joseph Smith didn’t mention, “By the way, there’s also a funerary rite here in case somebody else can translate this later.”
Simone Collins: Yeah. Just give them that warning so they don’t think it’s fishy.
Malcolm Collins: It’s obvious he was conning people
Simone Collins: I know, it was, it was poorly planned. It was poorly planned.
It’s disappointing.
Malcolm Collins: Anyone, anyone who could actually read that would have mentioned, “By the way, there’s a funerary rites text at the end just in case it’s translated in the future.”
Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah, and to think it, that it never would be is a little short-sighted, but- Well,
Malcolm Collins: it’s to just not care. We’ve noticed this with a number of sort of con artist cults, is they don’t really plan for what’s gonna happen in future generations.
Mm-hmm. Like the Apostolic Church the Apostolic Catholic Church that was like, “Oh, well, we didn’t really plan for what would happen after the founder died, so maybe we just can’t consecrate any new bishops.”
Simone Collins: Tex is trying so hard to get to the mic Hello? that he is, like, standing up
Malcolm Collins: Okay.
Simone Collins: They want your money.
Malcolm Collins: How are you and your family doing? From Chase Bank.
Simone Collins: How, how are we doing? Situation normal in
Malcolm Collins: here. And then the telestial kingdom, this is the lowest of the three, for those who did not receive the gospel or the testimony of Jesus in mortality or the spirit world, or those who reject it, including the many who lived wickedly-
Described as including liars, adulterers, et cetera. Hmm. They suffer in spirit prison or hell until they repent or vow the knee. Then they are resurrected later and inherit glory. They do not receive presence of Father, Son, but are ministered to by the Holy Spirit who brings them to higher kingdoms.
Hmm. That, I thought, was very interesting. Oh, and also you’ve got the outer darkness. A very, very small number do not inherit any kingdom of glory. These are the sons of perdition, primarily Satan and the third of the heavenly host of Heaven who followed him in premortal rebellion, never receiving bodies, plus rare individuals who, after receiving sure knowledge of God through the Holy Ghost and partaking of his power, fully deny the truth, defy God, and fight against him, committing the unpardonable sin.
I think th- this is deconverting from Mormonism. For them, there is no forgiveness in this world or the next, so they go to outer darkness, sometimes called a hell or perdition sins.
Simone Collins: Okay. What’s it actually like? Do the... Is there any kind of-
Malcolm Collins: Nothingness. Floating in LEGOs. That’s the, my understanding.
Simone Collins: Floating in LEGOs. Floating in LEGOs. Okay, sir. Sir.
Text sir.
Malcolm Collins: Someone’s- I do like, one thing that I like a lot about the Mormon heavenly system- Yeah ... is that it tries to be maximally nice. Like, everyone gets some form of heaven, and when it’s done in the full way, we’ll read about the full way here in just a second.
When it’s done in the full way you also get some sort of a job if you’re in the highest level of heaven to, like, bring other people to the highest level of heaven. Oh,
Simone Collins: even in the interim when you’re a ghost. I, I think it’s really cool. It’s like, “Nope, you gotta convert people. Look, always be closing, okay?”
Malcolm Collins: Always be closing. But, that there is a form of heaven for people who are not responsible to get to the form of heaven where your actions have consequences which is the highest level of heaven. And I would argue that the Bible actually argues for that. When we get to our heaven video, just a heads-up for where I’m probably gonna go with that is- Yeah
what the Bible seems to suggest, from my reading of it, is that heaven can really be thought of in three stages. You wanna have Sheol where you have no work and you’re dead. You’re then raised again at some future state. When raised again, if you are not good enough, you are then put through a simulation of a life that is maybe monitored by other people who died who were better than you morally trying to bring out your morality, trying to help you.
But many people stay forever in these simulations ‘cause they just can never reach this state. ‘Cause it said some people are always unworthy in heaven. And then there’s the final group, and this is the group that basically gets assigned jobs and works alongside the angels which would be, if we’re right about how this works, basically being sort of...
Think of it as being reincarnated as the AI systems that run settlements and spaceships and stuff like that. It says some souls will run five cities, some souls will run 10 cities, and it also specifically says the groups that you will be responsible for are made up of your distant descendants. Like, that’s who your works will be applied to.
So, that’s, that’s not dissimilar from the Mormon system. And in the the tract where we go over it, we’ll go over all the scriptural evidence where it, this aligns with scripture a lot better than traditional understandings. Mm. ‘Cause with traditional understandings, you need to explain why some lines say you’re working in heaven, some lines say you’re not working in heaven, some lines say unrighteous people are being raised forever.
Why is that happening? Where are they going? So et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And not just unrighteous, but people who will never be able to become righteous, it says. So Now I asked about, like, well, what’s the thing about becoming a god, right?
Simone Collins: Right? Yeah.
Malcolm Collins: And so it says those core ideas have not been dropped, that the church has refined how it presents some of the more popular ideas.
The doctrine of exaltation, the highest degree of the celestial kingdom, still includes becoming gods or goddesses. Current official materials such as the Church Gospel of Principles menus- Manual state that exalted people will live eternally in the presence of the Holy Father and Jesus Christ, will become gods, will be united eternally with their righteous family members, and will be able to have eternal increase, spirit children, so they can continue to have children in heaven.
We’ll get to that. Muslims also think you can have children after you die. Will receive a fullness of joy, will have everything the Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have, all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge. This is written in the Doctrine of Covenants 76 and 132. The idea that exalted couples continue as families, have spirit offspring, and participate in the kind of creative governing work that Gods does is standard teaching.
Many members continue to understand this as involving the organization and peopling of worlds. However, that specifically popular phrasing of you get a planet or you rule your own planet is something the church has publicly pushed back on in official statements- Really? ... including responses to media and the Gospel Topics essay on becoming like God.
The church has said that this cartoonish image is not taught by scriptures as doctrine and stemmed from speculative comments made by past leaders rather than formal doctrine.
Simone Collins: Wow.
Malcolm Collins: Official language now tends to stay closer to becoming like God or eternal increase and all the Father has without emphasizing a planetary real estate.
Simone Collins: Huh.
Malcolm Collins: So you don’t get to believe this anymore if you’re Mormon, but you do if you come to techno-puritanism. We would say you do get not a planet in a separate reality. Well, we do believe there’s going to be eventually a separate reality because it says that eventually Earth is consumed by fire, expansion of the sun, and then reality is there’s another reality after this one or another heaven after this one.
So l- likely a, a second type of reality that humanity will build to prevent, like, the, the big cold. But that in that actual real future, you will be doing some degree of labor on the behalf of your distant descendants, which I think is really awesome. And, and no, and when, when I went into it, I didn’t think that.
I was just like, I told her ‘cause I, you know, I told you this morning, I was like, “I think you’re just in a simulation forever.” And then I read the Bible, and it was like, “No, you become like an angel, and you have to do work.” And I was like, “Oh, wow, that’s way better.” Nice afterlife.
Simone Collins: Yeah. Meaningful. Yeah, y- you don’t wanna just be sitting around doing nothing.
Malcolm Collins: Yeah.
Simone Collins: Kinda depressing.
Malcolm Collins: All right, Simone, I will catch you in the next video.
Simone Collins: Mm-hmm. Love you.