Exploring The Terminal Nature of Atheistic Religions — episode transcript
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Exploring The Terminal Nature of Atheistic Religions — episode transcript
Malcolm Collins: Hello, Simone. Today we are going to be talking about some of the atheistic religions that people founded, exploring how one essentially became the state religion of Brazil and why most of them have died out. Hmm. And they just were terribly designed is basically the answer. And two you’ll see.
You’ll see. You’ll be like- Right ... “Why would you do that? That’s a terrible idea.”
Simone Collins: Do you think that a lot of it comes down to people just, you need to actually think, have some inspiration or, I don’t know, feel, feel a sense of wonder in order to build a religion that’s compelling?
Malcolm Collins: No. Actually- Do you just think they didn’t put a lot of work into it?
I think that that’s what destroyed them. I think they tried to recreate a sense of wonder rather than a sense of faith.
Hmm.
And- Interesting ... it was through creating and focusing on the concept of wonder. ‘Cause what they focused on, like the big one we’re gonna focus on, the Comet one he tried to take all the stuff from Catholicism, the cathedrals, the, the beautiful, the hymns, the four-hour ceremonies, but remove all of the faith from it.
Oh. And apparently they were so cringe and boring, somebody who went to them and said, “They could only be have been conceived by someone who had never laughed in his life.” You getting a call from them or?
The Cult of Reason, atheistic anthropic festivals like the Temple of Reason associations and the Herbus emphasized liberty, reason, and republic. Robespierre replaced it with the Cult of the Supreme Being, basically a deistic religion, a deistic existence of a supreme being plus the immortal soul, civic virtue festivals.
Theosoph- pho- philosophotherapy, the Friends of God and Man, was a later, milder deistic moral alternative promoted under the directory. It focused on love of God and fellow humans without traditional dogmas. These were top-down political tools for Republican cohesion and morality after Catholicism’s collapse.
They differed in theology, atheist versus deist and intensity, but they shared a lot. They all collapsed quickly with political shifts specifically the executions of the leaders, Thermidor and then Napoleon’s ban by 1802. They didn’t have a second generation. They basically didn’t work.
They were just seen as one of those quirky things we did when we were having the revolution which makes sense if you’re attempting to, you know, have something like that. Interestingly, the way the one took power in Brazil was because the revolution ended in a stable state. They also went to one of these humanistic cults during the revolution because they were kicking out the monarchy, which was tied to the pope, and so they wanted something that was counter to that.
And so they tried to create, like, a counter-papal system, right? Basically. Then you had Saint-Simonism from the 1820s to 1830s. Claude Henri de Saint-Simon and his disciples, after his 1825 death developed a vision of industrial society reorganized by scientists and industrialists as a, quote, unquote, “new Christianity or religion of industry.”
So
Simone Collins: he, like, hi- recruited a bunch of s- scientists by trade, like academic scientists? Yeah, this was his
Malcolm Collins: idea, that they were gonna have a, a world of scientists and, and industrialists and a religion of industry/productivity emphasizing useful work, association, and, and an end to exploitation of man by man.
It was, it was very sort of, socialist. Followers formed quasi-sectarian community with hierarchical church-like structure, distinctive dress, and mystical elements. It tried to fuse science, industry, and moral religious purpose into a productive utopian order. It differed from for positivism by retaining some quasi-mystical or new Christian framing for later ethical societies, but explicitly socioeconomic program and treated them as temporary communal experiments.
The organization fractured over internal splits over leadership, free love
Simone Collins: ideas, and
Malcolm Collins: priestess- Of course it did.
Simone Collins: Wait, free love ideas? Yeah. They, they couldn’t agree. Were they all
Malcolm Collins: sleeping together? Well, I think it was about access to sex. That’s what is definitely meant by free love.
Simone Collins: Oh, boy.
Malcolm Collins: A fa- they also faced legal condemnation, and they dissolved by the 1830s.
Simone Collins: Oh, wow. Interesting. I’d never heard about that one before, ever.
Malcolm Collins: Although the, the, the members of it affected major real-world projects like the Suez Canal, banking, and engineering.
Simone Collins: Okay. So, like- ... the competent people were involved in this project.
Malcolm Collins: Yes. The next one is the one that it did get some tract in Brazil and is the source of the quote on the Brazilian flag.
Like, the quote on that big blue ball is this. This is from the religion of humanity or positivism, and it’s the one we’re gonna go into in a bit more detail which was founded by Comte mid-19th century. Mm. Auguste Comte, founder of positivism and sociology, designed a full secular replacement for supernatural religion after his relationship with Cultier Davox.
It featured a positivist calendar, months named after great figures, liturgy, sacraments including secular baptisms, marriages, and funerals, priesthood, a cult of humanity, the great being or the collective benefit of all humans, and moral force through sentiment and altruism. Chapels opened in Paris, London, and a number in Brazil.
Hmm.
This was an, a, an elaborate blueprint they put together. Catholic, which he called Catholicism minus Christianity. It differed from earlier revolutionary cults by being systemic, philosophy-driven, and post-revolutionary. And for ethical culture, it, it’s, it’s sort of heavier and more dogmatic in that part of its machinery.
Simone Collins: Hmm.
Malcolm Collins: Peak London membership may have been 93 people.
Simone Collins: Yeah. Okay. Hmm.
Malcolm Collins: Then you had, And, and basically it seems like all of the worst parts of Catholicism. Like the- None of
Simone Collins: the fun stuff ...
Malcolm Collins: music that just to me is just so draining and boring. Oh, I kinda like it. And the long celebrations, and the four-hour celebrations they had for it.
Yeah,
Simone Collins: I, I can’t handle the length. Yeah, that’s fair.
Malcolm Collins: I’m like, “Come on, you could be doing something.” You could be doing- Then you had the ethical culture of Felix Adler, 1876 onwards.
Simone Collins: Okay.
Malcolm Collins: Adler, the son of a reformed rabbi, founded the New York Society for Ethical Culture as a religion of ethics or deed before creed.
It rejected theology and supernatural claims while affirming the autonomy and supremacy of moral law, ethical self-cultivation, and social reforms. Societies held Sunday meetings moral education for children, and practical projects, free kindergartens and nursing services, later labor reforms, settlement houses, and it spread to other US cities and was in Britain.
It tried to supply a consecration, community, and moral seriousness for people who had left traditional creeds without cosmology or God. Hmm. It differed from Comte by being lighter on the formal liturgy/priesthood and heavier on social action and individual ethical grow- growth. From monism, by lacking scientific monist metaphysics, membership never exceeded a few thousand nationally.
New York historically had 1,000 at its peak. It survives today as small ethical societies focused on ethics and justice. Persistent, but no mass or multi-generational religion. A number of these, I do think we should target for techno puritan infiltration to just take over their, you know, trusts and, and, any, any buildings or whatever they have left.
Because functionally we’re, we are a technical successor to them. Like I think their leadership would understand that.
Simone Collins: Mm.
Malcolm Collins: But like we actually have a potential for growth. But to continue here. Then you have the Monist League. This was founded in 1906. The biologists and popularism of Darwinism,
Oh
as honorary president, the German Monist League to promote monism, the unity of nature, matter, and spirit under natural law as a scientific world view and religion of science, opposing dualism and traditional dogmatism. It organized lectures, local groups, and internal outreach among freethinkers, scientists, and professionals.
It tried to turn evolutionary science and monist philosophy into a binding secular faith with ethical and social implications. It differed in being more explicitly scientific and anti-clerical in nature, centered on Adler’s pure ethics focus and less ritually elaborate than Comte. Membership reached a few thousand, so it did better than many of the others, but it dissolved under the Nazis in 1933.
Again, interesting that we would technically fall under this because the, the techno-puritanism is monist traditionally. Sunday Assembly was founded in 2013. Two comedians launched an atheist church or secular congregation gatherings, weekly monthly meetings with pop songs, inspiring talks, community, and the motto, “Live better, help often, wonder more.”
It deliberately mimics the social and ritual forms of church.
Simone Collins: It- Didn’t that spread in like, in Silicon Valley? I heard
Malcolm Collins: about that one. Yeah. It, it got to the low thousands of attendees. It functions more like a hobby than a real self-replicating religion.
Simone Collins: I think it, it had more to do with like a community hangout, a, a place where you could meet people and do something on the weekends that was more affordable.
Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So, one thing that I asked AI, ‘cause I thought this was pretty interesting, is what did the founders of these religions think of why the previous ones had failed? And
Basically they really seemed to misunderstand what was going wrong with the other ones. So oh, let’s see if I can find some good explanations here
Yeah, so for example, if you take the Monast League founder, he had direct commentary on Comet, Adler, and French cults in sparse no it’s sparse, we don’t have a lot. He, he didn’t like that they were, like, too religious basically. Basically, the, the people kept saying that other people were getting the wrong thing wrong.
Like Comte’s major thing is that you’re not having enough of the, the dress up of religion. You’re not having enough of the singing, you’re not having enough of the ch- cathedrals, you’re not having enough of the sense of wonder. And so that’s what he tried to add back And so let’s try to better understand
what the core beliefs of the Comte were. Okay?
Simone Collins: Yeah. ‘
Malcolm Collins: Cause this one’s pretty interesting. Okay, so, the central object of reverence was humanity. The new great being they called it. The continuous collective of humans past, present, and future who had contributed or would contribute usefully to the common good.
Parasites, those who added nothing and were merely selfish, were excluded from this human body. So you can see they already superficially appear to have a lot in common with techno-puritanism, right? Like our concept of husks, our concept of what humanity is, what matters, what God is, et cetera. They believed humanity was not transcendent or separate from the world.
It needed living as much as the living needed it. The dead, the great majority of humanity, were said to govern the living more and more, and this is where it differs from us. It was really when he said, “I care about humanity past, pocus, pa- past, present, and future,” you as a techno-puritan may hear, “Oh, so you really care about future people?”
And he’s like, “Well, I mean, they don’t really matter that much. What I really mean is past people.” They were really obsessed with a form of what could almost be called descendant worship of great figures in human history. That they really propped up and saw as, you know, heavily influencing them and, and, and their religion, which is the opposite intuition that techno-puritanism takes on this particular question Now the second thing you may hear is you’re like, “Oh, they’re willing to call some people parasites and say they don’t even count as human?
That sounds like they’re willing to take, like, really harsh positions and everything like that.”
Simone Collins: Yeah, that’s a deviation from the typical, like, everything’s okay secular religions.
Malcolm Collins: Yeah. The problem is, is that’s more a throwaway part of their philosophy. Their core philosophy is built around three pillars: love slash altruism, order, and progress.
And your goal was to push forwards these. They were very much a love everyone sort of a religion. Mm-hmm. And very much... Like, if you, if you go to their sermons or something like that, it would be on how great humanity is, how we need to go out there and, you know, help the poor, help the s- help the suffering, help the whatever, right?
Whereas techno-puritanism is much more interested in, like, okay, which humans don’t matter? Like, w- when, when, when do we fight back? How do we defend ourselves? How do we build alliances, and how do we get rid of the dangerous parts of the human species, right? Which is very much would never enter the lexicon of this type of stuff.
Simone Collins: Yeah.
Malcolm Collins: Because they just don’t believe things very strongly, and it’s more about, like, what’s the ... But the, the foundation is actually pretty good, I think. So for example, how do they judge morality? Morality is judged by what benefited humanity as a whole. Knowledge came only from positive scientific methods.
First causes and supernatural explanations were rejected. Women sentien- sentiment, and effective s- were an effective site of life, were elevated, heavily influenced by Comte’s idealized version of Comtesse d’Agoult. That’s the woman he had a crush on who he treated as a kind of secular Virgin Mother Mary after her death.
The overall
Simone Collins: worldview- That was his Beatrice, basically.
Malcolm Collins: Yeah. They would they were really obsessed with women. So when you were there, you would do sacraments to your daughter. It’s like, not just your daughters, but, like, the daughter, humanity’s daughter the sister, and the mother, right? Like, everything was done and it was, was, was female framing.
Everything was done centering female and putting females on top. Which is interesting- Well, I’ll, I’ll get to why I think all this is really interesting in a second. They had sacraments. So listed in a book that he wrote, the presentation, naming and sponsoring of an infant analogous to a baptism, often with two saints from the calendar.
Initiation/admission into end of education or entry into the service of humanity. Destination, choice of a career, marriage and maturity, and then a retirement sacrament. Separation/transformation for, for funeral rites and incorporation, absorption into humanity three years after death based on merit.
So if you have a good person, a person of merit died, they would do a separate ceremony three years afterwards to incorporate them into the, I don’t know, human memory or whatever. So the positivist calendar, they, it had 13 months and 28 days each, plus a blank day. The months were named after figures like Moses, Homer, Aristotle, Archimedes, Caesar, St.
Paul, Charlemagne, Dante, Gutenberg, Shakespeare Descartes, Frederick the Great- They went
Simone Collins: so far with
Malcolm Collins: this ... Picot, yeah. Days were dedicated to hundreds of other historic contributors. Festivals marked stages of human history, life cycles, and social rebellions. Private worship, the daily prayers were directed to one’s guardian angels, typically mother past, wife present, and daughter future.
These cultivated in awe, attachment, and compassion. Disciples were instructed in simple physical gestures, e.g. tapping the back of the head for goodwill, order, or progress. At, at their temples, they did readings of his books classical music, hymns, and sermons/lectures on altruism and duty, and commemorations of great individuals.
And the priests were required to marry and have kids. Or sorry, not have kids, but they were required to marry because they thought that you needed a woman in your life to be like fully ethical. And you couldn’t become a priest until 42. Membership grew large in Europe and the English-speaking world.
It peaked in the low thousands. Best in Logan for dozens to low hundreds. After Combs’ death, the movement splintered and then eventually faded. And people just never really got that into it. And I mean, I can see why. It’s, it’s all of the
Simone Collins: boring- Yeah, like all the work. Yeah, I mean, it is impressive that they had a whole baptism process and that they changed the days.
But also like because of all those things, I feel like it would be extra hard to integrate with the rest of society because they’re like, “What month is it?” You’re like, “Well, it’s Aristotle and, you know, it’s It’s kinda confusing. It’s kinda hard.
Malcolm Collins: Yeah. You just do
Simone Collins: everything
Malcolm Collins: extra. It just feels so contrived.
The whole thing feels so fake and gay, if I’m gonna put it, you know, the way they put... It j- just like very... It, it triggers every one of my ick instincts. This idea of just like sitting around. Well, yeah, and I think that for a lot of people it’s going to. You’re gonna go to this and you’re gonna be like, “Ugh, everyone here is such a boner.”
And- A
Simone Collins: bummer. I mean-
Malcolm Collins: No, I like- You
Simone Collins: wanna try to have fun, right? I mean-
Malcolm Collins: Whenever I interact with like normies, I get really distressed. I find normies very distressing. I would find normies in a church context very distressing. I think you know, even if we opened one, we’d still have to be interacting with normies, and this is gonna be a topic of a future episode Tract episode, because we’ve done the research or I’ve done the research, and I am now quite certain that the Bible is very anti-church.
It does not like churches at all. It’s, it’s either explicitly anti-church, like they... You- they’ll build a church for God, and God’ll be like, “Why did you build this for me? I did not ask you to build this. The church is in, in you, in your family lines,” right? Like the church is the family and the community.
And the word that’s often translated to church is the word for community, or, like, a other community of believers. And all of these places think about like any of the times you know Jesus teaching. He’s outside. He’s talking to people. He’s at somebody’s house. He’s at a meal. And the, you know, the, the closest thing to an affirmed church that we have is the temple, which is where they did like animal sacrifices, and God clearly got mad about that, right?
So, and if you look at the way early Christians worshiped, it was at house churches, right? Like this, this appears to be, And whenever you get a house church movement, you typically have it grow really quickly, right? So we’ve seen this happen in the past. So I think one very interesting thing about techno puritanism versus this is in terms of the practice and drive and vibe, it’s kind of antithetical.
With techno puritanism being focused very much on the family rather than going to a building with other people well, the family and the community. Like, y- you know, the Bible still says you should be communicating with other believers, but, like, focus on people who mentally stimulate you, right? Like, don’t- Don’t go out there and just have to listen to some idiot because if you’re like a follower of this show, chances are you’re gonna have a real hard time finding a preacher that’s smarter than you, if I’m gonna be honest.
We have high IQ fans and, Gosh ... you go, you go and you listen to somebody and they’re just, “Oh, this is so bad.” Well, and- And then you gotta interact with random people. And I think that this is why his religion did really well in Brazil, but not in America or the UK was because if there are genetics for being tolerant of stuff like a long, big ceremony or impressed with like big ceremony, a Catholic would be the descendant...
I mean, Brazil would be the descendants of Catholics, so maybe that’s why that worked there better. Like, maybe they actually love that stuff. Maybe they actually feel great about that stuff. And that, that could be what we’re seeing there.
Simone Collins: Well, I do think that in the past, you know, in a pre-internet age when you’re kind of isolated in a village, churches played sort of a key role for imparting norms and creating social cohesion.
Malcolm Collins: Yeah.
Simone Collins: We don’t need them in order to have norms and social cohesion anymore, so I, I respect that the format that’s most optimal is gonna shift But I think we also need to parse out, so, like, it became clear when the pandemic hit and schools were closed that lo and behold, schools weren’t just about providing education.
In fact, schools are pretty suboptimal at educating. It’s more that parents really needed schools for somewhere pla- somewhere for the kids to be- Yeah ... and somewhere to provide food services and to evaluate health standards and all these other things. Like, there were all these other things that were looped in to schools, and that’s what people, to a great extent, primarily freaked out about.
And actually learned that their kids weren’t actually learning anything, anything at school. It could be that churches are very similar, that people think churches are about religion, when really they’re more, at least historically, they were more about getting everyone on the same page normatively, creating social cohesion, enabling people to meet each other and help each other out and, and solve each other’s problems- Yeah
because if you go to church every Sunday- What I’m saying
Malcolm Collins: is I, I don’t, I think that they may have served that role in some regions historically, but generally they lead to corruption even when you do get social cohesion out of them. And the corruption they lead to causes long-term more harm than good in, in the regions that they’re operational.
And, you know, bloodshed, war, stuff like that. I think, I think it’s better to have completely independent and autonomous household churches and, and focus on user communication. But that’s, like, a complete inversion of his vibe. My vibe is like the religion part- Oh, yeah. Yeah ... keep that. Like, that’s real.
Go away from all of this performative stuff. And I think- Yeah. Yeah.
Simone Collins: Well, and I think it’s because in the end, in, in our modern society, the church as an institution is a suboptimal means of imparting religion and creating that form of cohesion. It’s not as good as other means that could be utilized but aren’t right now.
Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well, the secondary point here being is not just the church issue but if you look at the vibes of his, his is very focused on the feminine. You know, love- Yeah,
Simone Collins: that’s... What’s... Was that explained? Is he just kind of one of those men who really, really pedestalizes women? What’s, what’s up with
Malcolm Collins: not like- He really pedestalized one specific woman he had a crush on who died, and then he- Yeah
he was obsessed with her
Simone Collins: Well, he’s not the first He,
Malcolm Collins: he didn’t, he didn’t... and then through her, he pathologized women in, in general. And I think that that was a major... You know, but a, a lot of this was about, like, feminine energy, and I’d say technopyrritinism is the exact opposite. Like, we’re quite clear- It’s very masculine
Simone Collins: coded
Malcolm Collins: that generally the, the man should be running things and that women cause a lot of problems in society. They, they are needed. Thanks,
Simone Collins: Malcolm.
Malcolm Collins: They are needed but you know, on net we try to be honest about our individual roles and capacities. The second is this focus on, like, love and really focusing on, on, on, on sentimentalism around humanity-
Hmm
instead of, like, a very rigid, “No, you have a duty to control your emotions at all times.”
Simone Collins: Yeah. Sentimentalism is, is pretty toxic. We could probably do a whole episode on why that’s the case.
Malcolm Collins: But yeah, I felt that religion was fairly interesting because you can see how on its surface, it could have sounded like, very, very, very similar to technopyrrhotism.
Simone Collins: Yeah, but it’s super not. Where,
Honestly, the thing I think it’s more similar to is that one country that decided to be run by, like, the Star Trek machine. Remember that? Yes.
Malcolm Collins: Yes.
Simone Collins: That’s, that’s great. It, it feels more like that, like this age in which we’re like, “We can build it better. We shall build a logical version of everything.
We’ll govern ourselves with machines, and we’ll make a secular religion that is enlightened.” And look, we tried it and it didn’t work. So it’s all good.
Malcolm Collins: Yeah. There’s also, if people ask us why we don’t just go full secular with our religion, instead of being like, “No, all this stuff is, like, really actually true,” is because it doesn’t work.
You can create something almost exactly like what we’re creating, but more secular, but with just more of the fancy stuff and it won’t work. It’s not a pe- compelling to people so we go the, the absolute opposite direction where we keep all of the meat and the harshness. We just get rid of the window dressing, the, you know, stained glass windows and the singing and the hymns and all that
Yeah. Wasn’t sure if that was interesting to you, Simone I
Simone Collins: find that interesting. I didn’t know that there were so many. I didn’t know about the Brazilian one until you brought it up to me. The only one I really knew about was, I knew about that trendy 2013 church, what, Su- Sunday somethings, and I knew about the French Revolution attempt at making a secular religion.
Malcolm Collins: Mm.
Simone Collins: But that’s it. Who knew that there were so many? But I guess I wouldn’t expect to know about them because they’re so f- they failed so quickly.
Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well, I mean, yeah, a lot of them were, like, famous person tries to get a bunch of people into this, and the people who got on board are, like, edgy scientist types and stuff like this that are, you know, that are, like, you know, of the super progressive variety.
Like, s- a number of these projects were explicitly socialist or communist. And it just doesn’t work. People aren’t about that. And so they don’t, they don’t have kids. They don’t pass it on, and nothing comes of it
Love you, Simone
Simone Collins: I love you too, and I love religion. I love our religion discussions. Whoa shall I make you taquitos for dinner, or do you want gyozas one more
Malcolm Collins: time? Taquitos would be great, actually.
Simone Collins: Great. We’re on.
Malcolm Collins: What are we using for meat?
Simone Collins: The ground beef-
Malcolm Collins: Okay, that works ... that I
Simone Collins: sauteed. Yeah. But the...
God.
Malcolm Collins: And what... Do you have any takeaways from learning about this organization, why it succeeded in one region and why it failed globally? Like, what are, what are your thoughts?
Simone Collins: I mean, I think a lot of it has to do with being in the right place at the right time. And when they lasted longer, it was just like a, a time when people were looking for something new. And we don’t know for
Malcolm Collins: example what was going on- I d- no, I, I disagree. It’s not about being in the right place at the right time.
Simone Collins: Really? You don’t think so? Like what if something was going on with the Catholic Church at that time that actually drove a lot of people, or like it was secularism
Malcolm Collins: or like- That’s exactly why it exploded in Brazil. But it has since died out in Brazil. It exploded in Brazil because they, they banned slavery, they kicked out the Catholic monarchy, the church was mad about this, and they saw that as the Catholic Church as the enemy of our revolutionary process.
The military adopted this as like its religion and they built a number of temples, and it was widely practiced in a few areas. But it then immediately died out i- w- when it needed to pass between generations
Simone Collins: Love it. What else is there to say? Well, no- You can try to make it work and it’s not gonna work ...
Malcolm Collins: y- yeah, I guess you can’t yeah. And focusing on for the celebrations, if you look at all the techno puritan celebrations, every one of them is focused on children. It’s, And, and teaching children a message or a value system or something that they can learn.
Whereas theirs were all focused on, like, performative stuff for adults, which I think showed they fundamentally don’t understand holidays.
Simone Collins: Yeah. I, I think y- that realization you had about holidays is one of the most important things in the entire world, that holidays are for children. And you can even see, like, how holidays work now, and how even holidays that were originally made for a- adults have been turned into holidays for children.
And if you really want a holiday that has a, a lasting religious message, start with children first, and y- it won’t become corrupted into something that you don’t like or that doesn’t represent your religion anymore.
Malcolm Collins: Mm-hmm.
Simone Collins: So I think that’s really important.
Malcolm Collins: Love you, and I am looking forward to dinner.
And if you want, we can try to do the first part of the Muslim tr- episode.
Simone Collins: Tex is pretty sad, so I’m gonna go take care of
Malcolm Collins: him. All right, go. Have a good one.
Simone Collins: Yeah. Love you.
Malcolm Collins: Love you too You get a heart beat. What’s the chance?
Simone Collins: Hope it looks good
But I could see it. I could see it on the ultrasound. A little flickering heartbeat. Beep, beep, beep, beep, beep. What does it say?
Malcolm Collins: It says 10%.
Simone Collins: Okay.
Malcolm Collins: That’s what I thought we were at before.
Simone Collins: No, that’s what the doctor said, but he was probably trying to reassure me at five weeks ‘cause I was freaking out because of all that, well, you know.
But no, this is good. This looks good. 10% good. It’s only gonna become less, you know, as time goes on.
Malcolm Collins: All right.
Simone Collins: Mm.